Aquí&Allá: Raven Chacon – English Transcription

Episode 2.4

Interview with Raven Chacon, by Peter Hay on Dec. 11th, 2020

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Peter (P): Our guest is a composer, performer, and installation artist from Fort Defiance, Navajo Nation. As a solo artist, collaborator, or with Postcommodity, he has exhibited or performed at Whitney Biennial, documenta 14, REDCAT, San Francisco Electronic Music Festival, Chaco Canyon, 18th Biennale of Sydney, and The Kennedy Center. Every year, he teaches 20 students to write string quartets for the Native American Composer Apprenticeship Project. Raven Chacon is the recipient of the United States Artists fellowship in Music, The Creative Capital award in Visual Arts, The Native Arts and Cultures Foundation artist fellowship, and the American Academy’s Berlin Prize for Music Composition. He lives in Albuquerque, NM.

Well, thank you, Raven. Welcome to the podcast “Aquí&AIlá”; conversations with creators from the United States and Mexico. I really appreciate your time this morning. I just, uh, gave a brief bio about you and your past, but I’m wondering if you would like to tell us a little bit about yourself and- and where you come from.

Raven: Well, I’m speaking to you today from Albuquerque, New Mexico; which is where I’ve lived most of my life. Um, I grew up on the Navajo Nation, the Navajo reservation, in a town called Chinle. My mother’s from that town. She’s Navajo. And we ended up out there, uh, because, uh, my, my mother was still, uh, going to school at that time. And my father he’s from Northern New Mexico. He’s Chicano, Hispano. And, um, and the two had met in Albuquerque, but you know, ended up in the, on the reservation. And that’s where I grew up the beginning years of my life, but eventually, the family went back to Albuquerque and so I’ve been here pretty much my whole life. And, um, with, uh, at least until somewhere in my twenties, then I was never home again. I was always on the road.

P: Okay. Okay. And so you mentioned, uh, um, generally, and that’s really close to Canyon de Chelly I’ve, I’ve driven around that area and it’s a very unique, I feel like a very unique atmosphere and landscape. Um, and also I feel like Albuquerque is a very…unique place in the United States as well. And you’re actually the second artist in our interview series that we’ve, we’ve interviewed from, uh, from Albuquerque- based in Albuquerque. And we talked a lot about kind of the, the funkiness of Albuquerque and how it’s, like, this really interesting, uh, mixture of, of different cultures and, uh, you know, an interesting history that’s- that’s happened in New Mexico. Um, is, do you feel like that is, is some influence on, on the work you make, all of those sort of very unique New Mexico, Southwest, um, atmospheres?

R: Not consciously; it’s, it’s where I’m from. But of course, as you mentioned, there is a complicated history of mixture and erasure and ongoing sharing of, of blood and ideas. Um, so, so, given that history, because that history is who I am as well, uh, it, it does emerge in the work as topics. And also the land is a big part of, you know, what I, what I feel is a part of my life. And so the land gets referenced. I’m not, I’m not Georgia O’Keeffe, I don’t paint the, paint the landscape or anything like that, but I do like to make recordings outdoors. I do like to research the history of places that I- that are around the area where I live. Um, and I like to perform outdoors. I like to do a lot of things, outdoors, sonically, uh, I feel confined to do all of this work in a studio. So, uh, many times it, um, it does become a topic of the work. And later when I was doing installations with post-commodity, a lot of the work we, we made were- was about the larger region where we find ourselves in the complex identity of this region.

P: Yeah. Yeah. Um, um, you mentioned the, the gathering of, of sounds and recordings from the area, and I’ve been listening to your, your work a lot recently kind of getting ready for the interview and actually the- I’m glad you mentioned the post commodity, because that was actually the first way I found about found out about you and your work, um, was meeting, uh, somebody associated with post-commodity and Tulsa some years ago. And, um, I just, um- it’s interesting to me, the process, because, um, it seems like, you know, there is an at- like I mentioned, I said, I use the word atmosphere a lot. But I feel like the work has- it creates an atmosphere and it seems like it really captures the space and the magic. I could feel like there’s a magic in that part of the world. Um, and is- do you feel like that is, is something that you’re, you’re trying to do, uh, are trying to communicate or lead? You mentioned it was unconscious.

R: Not at all. Yeah, not at all. And I appreciate the compliment. I feel that this, if there is any reference to, uh, where I’m making the music or what the music might be about, as you’ve mentioned, atmosphere, it’s completely accidental and just an artifact of what I’m trying to do. Of the way I’m making music, of the way I’m playing my instrument, which might be a homemade oscillator or a field recording of something, you know, manipulated or not manipulated. I think maybe that’s- that emerges either in the mind of the listener or it’s something that is bound to occur based on the way I work and where I come from, but it’s not something I’m consciously trying to do, is evoke a place in my work. Um, perhaps maybe just the title references it, and it’s enough to make that bridge to a listener; that this is about, uh, this place and the possibilities of this place.

P: And, uh, we’ve been talking a little bit about, about what you make, but, um, I’m wondering if you could maybe tell the listeners a little bit about, um, how you would describe what you make.

R: Well I do…I would say I do three or four different things, and a lot of times I keep them very separate. One thing I do is make recordings. And sometimes those are also performances. And those tend to be manipulations of instruments, uh, amplified instruments, overly amplified instruments, cassette tapes, tape loops, field recordings, process through guitar pedals, distortion pedals. Effects that I’ve made or tried to make, and they don’t come out quite right, but I still try. And this becomes what, uh, I suppose, as in a genre of, of noise or experimental, you know, kinds of, uh, electro-acoustic music. And another thing I do totally separate, and rarely overlapping, is putting notes on paper and writing music compositions for classical musicians, chamber musicians. And a lot of times, I mean, almost all of them are in the form of scores. Whereas the previous work is almost entirely improvisational.

R: And so this collaboration with chamber musicians is, uh, that was very prescriptive, I would say. And, um, is, is me sitting there with a piece of paper and creating a set of instructions; whether it is a traditionally notated score or it’s something more graphic or text-based, uh, to make music in that way. And so the third thing that I do is make sound installations, and those usually come about because they’re the things that do not fit on the score or on the recording or on the stage. So I had to find another form for these ideas or these pieces to exist in. And that became, uh, these, these works that I do that might be in an installation environment, or they might be a sound installation utilizing speakers or video, or, uh, you know, other kinds of sound making elements. And- and that work then did overlap with the work I started doing when I became a member of post commodity and worked with that collective for 10 years. And even though a lot of that work was based in sound, a lot of it was using other mediums too. A lot of it was video. A lot of it was sculptural. The piece we became most known for was the “Repellent Fence”, which- which was a land art installation on the U.S.-Mexico border.

P: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think, um, this- I have so many questions now, but I’ll, I’ll try to, like, concise them, but I mean, it makes me think of all sorts of things from like, well, you know, what’s, what’s considered music to, like, you know, um, uh, transdisciplinarity, to everything that’s sort of in the middle from those questions. But, um, so I’m, I’m curious, uh, because you mentioned post commodity and the work, do-, are you still working with post commodity?

R: No, no. I left the group a couple of years ago and, uh, focused on, you know, just other projects. I feel like, uh, you know, I was thinking about my favorite bands and they all last about 10 years, so I decided to go and…do something else. You know? Switch it up.

P: Yeah, yeah, sure. No, I think that’s a- you have to do, you know, you have to move forward in the best ways for yourself and for everyone. So I think that that’s great. And Repellent Fence, um, that was definitely a groundbreaking piece. And, uh, it definitely caught a lot of attention for a lot of, you know, very timely reasons. And, um, but I’m, I’m thinking back to like past post commodity pieces, too, with sound installation and the materiality of them. And, um, like I’m thinking of a piece where there’s a deer hanging from a kind of a tripod that is dripping onto a drum. And, um, I’m wondering, uh, were you part of- you’re part of the creation of that piece, correct? And could you tell me a little bit more about that, that piece in particular and just sort of as a, a way for us to sort of unpack the creative process for you and for post commodity at the time?

R: Yeah, that was a piece very, very close to me as I was the member who, uh, is from that region. You know, it was that, that piece was about Santa Fe, New Mexico, and about central and Northern New Mexico. And about the mixture of, of people that live in this area. Whether they’re detribalized people or they are people who are pretending that they don’t have indigenous blood, they are Chicano, they are Hispano, they are Pueblo, they are Apache, they are Navajo. And, uh, all of this comes together at these sites. And so, for us, we wanted to think of that particular spot in Santa Fe. This spot has a long history of, of intersection, of trade, of commerce, even before contact times. And of course after contact times, it became another gathering place. And even today it’s still this marketplace. And so we wanted to stage a piece during the most, uh, marketable, uh, event that happens every year, which is the Santa Fe Indian Market. And so in, in telling them about this place, we wanted a mediator. So somebody who’s been there before humans, even. If we want to talk about indigeneity, but we also want to acknowledge what was there before indigenous people. And that would have been the mule deer, amongst many, many others, you know, I’m sure, reptiles even proceed, proceed that, but, um, but, um, the mule deer was very important because this was born to speak about the land. And since human times, then that animal has helped humans survive and has helped humans be fed, be warm and continues to be a presence in the area today. And so I like to think of the piece as a clock telling the story of that spot. So it does so in different ways that it, it works as a sundial giving respect to time, uh, reminding us that things are very temporary because this piece was only going to be up for four days. Also, the deer is dripping blood from its mouth at a rate of 15 seconds. Every 15 seconds, a drop falls from the mouth of the deer and hits an amplified drum. And then, the third way that it tells time is, it tells the history of the spot at the very top of the rack, uh, of, of, of four poles. All of these, all of these materials coming from the area of Santa Fe, and the mountains surrounding at the very top referencing the sky when no living things were in the area. And the further down you go, you see the deer. Again, as I was saying, referencing the animals before human history. Inside of the deer is blood to signify the indigenous people who live there and the ancestors of the current indigenous people. And all of this stirring around inside of the animal and then dripping and having this long lineage uninterrupted until contact times. And that’s when the blood makes contact with the head of the drum. And this being very loud, very thunderous. And after you hear that moment, this blood has an opportunity to pull up on the head of the drum, to mix with itself, and then drip off the sides back into the ground. And so that was a piece about land, about time, in a very long, long-form view. And of course, about the identity, um, of the people who live there.

P: Yeah. It’s a, it’s one of those pieces that, you know, because of, um…I feel in, in modern society, it’s, uh, it, it stops- it’s probably a shocker for a lot of people. Um, um, did- were you able to watch people interact with the piece or, you know, first hear the piece?

R: Yeah. There was a wide spectrum of opinions about it. Um, we had folks who watched it for a very long time and there were folks who were disturbed by it. There were- there was a woman on the other side of the wall who wanted us to take it down. It was a woman who sold leather boots and leather fringe jackets. We had asked her, what do you think the leather comes from?

P: Yeah, a little cognitive dissonance there. Yeah.

R: We did serve the opening from the meat, the meat from the deer became a stew that we served. Uh, we had, uh, we had a person who said that what we were doing was wrong and we needed to return the drum that we were using back to where we got it from, and, uh, and it’s it’s house style, uh, public drum. And we said, we, we can do that. But we, we, where we got this drum was at the airport and there was a stack of tourist t-shirts on top of it. So, I mean, I don’t think that was any more, um, I think that was even more disrespectful to have this drum in the airport, with a bunch of, a bunch of t-shirts on it. Um, so yeah, a wide variety of opinions, but for myself, it remains one of my favorite works and it’s, um, I think a precursor to a work like “Repellent Fence” in which we’re talking about land and identity and the mixture of indigenous and Spanish people.

P: Yeah. Yeah. Hey, I just feel like that that piece in particular really does highlight that connection to place and to land and to, um, all of the things you’re speaking about and it’s, uh, you know, it stopped me like- and I haven’t, I didn’t see it in person. I just saw it in, you know, years ago I came across it in a journal, I believe. Uh, and I was like, wow, this is like, this is so poignant and so powerful and, and, you know, shocking in some ways, but then thought provoking. So, yeah, I was just curious. I’ve been wanting to ask you about that piece since I, I first got you scheduled. I was like, I had to ask him about that and stuff.

R: Thank you. Yeah, yeah, all those pieces came from- our friend hunted that deer in the Jemez Mountains, just to the West of Santa Fe, the poles come from, uh, the forest outside of Santa Fe. And I even think the rope, the rope came about- I made the microphone, uh, that is attached to the drum. So maybe that still comes from New Mexico, but…and the blood, the blood, uh, the blood is a mixture of blood from the animal itself, uh, supplemented with blood from the butcher supplemented from- with some of my own blood. Not many, not many people know that. I don’t think I’ve revealed that to too many people, but it is in the title.

P: Yeah. Well, yeah. Well some people will know now, ha ha ha. That’s, yeah. That’s amazing. The, like- even if you read that, you wouldn’t assume like, wow, they’re just saying that. It’s like, no. That’s, that really is, you know? Um, and I- so the, there’s been a long history of those pieces from post commodity and, um, you know, it’s interesting because I don’t think there are a lot of creative people in the world that make the kind-as prolific as you are in multiple areas. And, um, I just say that because you have been so successful with composing for, um, collaborative projects, performing arts projects for, um, you know, doing these sound installations and sort of, uh, some things that sort of fall kind of in between all of them- those, um, and I’m curious like how that came about for you, you know, how does it that you decide what is important for you to pursue? Um, and was that a challenge maybe when you were, you were younger and trying to figure out where you were going to go?

R: That’s a good question, uh, my background, my training, my formal education is in music. I studied piano when I was, I think about, 10 or 11 years old. And, uh, uh, eventually using that basis, was able to learn other instruments, teach myself guitar and cello and, basically, music theory. And I went further on to, um- well, I was discouraged from studying music and even myself didn’t- wasn’t sure it was a good idea. So I actually started, uh, in university studying film because that was another interest of mine. And eventually, though, I was always just, you know, sitting at the mixing desk or studying recording while I was supposed to be studying the other technical aspects of filmmaking. And, uh, and was on my own time, studying orchestration, also playing a lot of music, playing in different bands, still keeping those skills up. I played in a mariachi group for a while. Um, you know, I played whatever I could. I also…we had a, we had a traditional, uh singing group, native singing group, uh, any, any kind of music that I could play, you know, or, or- ensemble I could play with. I took advantage of and tried to do that. And so, um, I eventually finished undergrad education in, in composition and studying music theory and all of the Western Canon of music, music, history, Beethoven, Bach, all of that kind of thing. And, um, because I, I truly do have a huge respect for those instruments that, uh, you know, Europe claims them- but they’ve, they’ve been developed from all over the world. A lot of them come from Asia, you know, Africa, these instruments that have evolved into what we know as classical instruments and, and, and they’ve gone a step further into, you know, being, being perfected through jazz. And, um, I think all of these instruments are beautiful and, and amazing. And, um, and I actually don’t think they can get any better. And so, um, you know, that’s, like, people try to process them with electronics, but that’s, that’s not really my thing, but, um, yeah. So that was one trajectory and, and it’s, it’s maybe the medium most close to my heart because, I think, all of this is, is music in some way, all of this time-based, uh, artwork is, is all in some way music. Whether it’s film or it’s performance, it’s all something lining up as something else in a way that, that maybe captures your attention maybe as a vehicle for meaning in the way that they line up. Maybe it’s simply, if nothing else, something we don’t understand about time and even that alone interests me. And yeah. So from there it’s, again, then, then it went on to further studies. I went to Cal Arts and studied with some of my favorite composers, James Tenney, who I was a fan of before studying with him, and Morton Subotnick and, um, and other folks. And finding a community there that was receptive to the work I was doing. Uh, even though New Mexico has an amazing music scene here in Albuquerque, uh, at the time, there wasn’t a lot of experimental music that I was finding or, or people that were aligning with my ideas or the things I wanted to do. So I had to go to Los Angeles to, to find a community of people who were doing similar things.

P: I see. And yeah, Albuquerque does have a, you know, what, what do they- what’s the, what’s the word that’s used Alba- Albuquirky? Is the, one of the, you know, synonyms for Albuquerque. And I think, you know, the, I’m thinking of like the, the punk metal scene there and how it’s all, you know, it’s very Chicano, it’s very indigenous. It’s very, just a little bit of all of these things mixed together. And, um, I could see that as being a great influence, but I think…

R: Yeah. Oh, yeah that’s, that’s- it’s, it’s definitely, uh, uh, Chicano and, and indigenous city. And, um, and, and everybody is involved in this kind of thing. And, and the overlap is, is surreal sometimes. I mean, I even still play in a metal band here in Albuquerque, ha ha ha, a thrash metal band, um, because there’s enough people to do this kind of thing. You know, we’re all friends, we all grew up together. We still do this thing.

P: Yeah. Do, do you have- is there anything online?

R: The band is called Tenderizor. O-R. I can send you a link and maybe you can repost it. Yeah, definitely.

P: Yeah. Yeah. I’d love to link that in there. I’d like to see it myself. I didn’t know about that. Um, that’s awesome. And, um, so talking about- going back to influences a little bit, you had some amazing professors, uh, that you studied with. Are there, are there some other contemporary influences that you kind of lean to now?

R: Hm, um…

P: It doesn’t have to be contemporary again.

R: Well, there’s a lot of things. I mean, they’re not, they’re- I guess if we’re talking about this Western tradition of, of classical music, I mean, for a long time, it was dominated by white men and, you know, there’s the obvious John Cage and that trajectory of people who are, who are the people that I studied with, you know, where the kind of intellectual descendants of, of what Cage was talking about. Um, and, and of those, there were, there was James Tenney, there was Alvin Lucier who, who I have huge respect for their work and, and ideas. And, uh, but at the same time, the, the music of where I come from, the Matachine dances, which are this hybrid art form of indigenous and Hispano performance, uh, is something that’s very influential. And just something, I, I mean, I don’t know how influential it is, but it’s something I, I love to listen to and to see, um, just, uh, what else? Um, I don’t know, films, uh, you know, “El Topo”, movies like that, that blew my mind, you know, and that was part of why I wanted to study film. I was like, “What is- what’s going on here? This is amazing.”

P: Yeah. Film, film does have this wonderful mixture of like visual narrative, you know, audio, it’s all, it’s all there. And it has to be in the right place to function. And, um, so do you, um, do you have any times where you feel creatively stuck and what, what do you think helps you push through those barriers?

R: Many might not believe me, but I never have that feeling. I can tell you my, my rules maybe for avoiding that, that feeling. And I tried to finish one thing a week. So every week I try not to start a new thing every week, but I have a lot of things, a lot of pieces of paper around my studio, a lot of sounds on hard drives, a lot of, uh, unfinished things. And so a goal of mine is to finish one thing a week. And so I never feel, I never feel bored or stuck, or like I’m beating my head against a wall because I know there’s something to be finished. And so in operating like that, I, I, I am constantly busy. And, and if I feel like that work can not be done in that week, then I’ll, then I’ll put it back in the shoe box or on the hard drive and leave it there until I know what to do with it. But once I know what to do with it, I think it comes very fast about what’s going to happen. And, and I have no problem saying this, because I also want to point out a huge part of my practice is collaboration. A lot of this I cannot do alone. Uh, and being a musician is- I think, prepares you for collaboration and how to work with others, how to utilize skill sets that you have, how to share knowledge with each other, how to understand when, when somebody ideas, um, can improve a project, you know, sharing things. I- I’d give a lot of sound to people for their films, because I just, I have faith that the, the accumulation, the cumulative efforts are going to produce something that I can agree with. And so, so back when I say, you know, uh, I have all these things here and there, and then shoe boxes, sometimes that ends up in other people’s work, too. And I have no problem with that.

P: Okay. That’s um, it’s- there’s something, too, like about the productivity and collaboration, that’s- they’re very tied together because you have like, like a commitment device is built into the project. You, you have accountability, you know, it’s not just yourself, that’s relying on that anymore. It’s like, there’s a group of you or somebody else is waiting, you know? Um, it’s a really, it’s a powerful driver.

R: Um, I mean, a lot of my work is like that, whether it’s playing in Tenderizor or it was working with post commodity, uh, you learn, you learn how to, to understand each other and, and work with each other, hopefully. And, and, um, benefit the, the song or the installation or the idea.

P: Hmm. And, and, uh, a previous interview from this season, I talked with Emily Johnson. So speaking of collaborators, she brought up that, I asked her, you know, we have the short answer questions at the end of the interview. And I asked her, you know, about music she was listening to. And she said, “Well, I’ve been listening to a lot of Raven Chacon because we’ve been working together and we’re going to work together.” So I’m curious, what, what projects do you have going now?

R: Well, I’ve been wanting to write a piece for her, and it’s one of those ones- this one’s not on the shoe box, this one’s pinned right to the middle of my wall, where I can look at it every day, but it, it’s- first will begin as a score. And, um, I don’t know yet, you know, what it will be, but I draw, I draw shapes. And these shapes may imply a pitch rising from a low tone to a high tone, or maybe it means it’s an aerial view of a dancer moving from one corner of a room to another. I don’t know what that shape means, but it’s going to mean something. And, you know, when I, when I link up with Emily, then we can figure out, perhaps, you know, all the possibilities of that, of that arrow or that line. But, uh, but that’s what I’ve been working on a lot recently, I would say over the past five years, is these conceptual scores. These kinds of almost portraits of different friends of mine, all indigenous women who work also in music and contemporary sound making. And so, so it’s a work called ‘For Zitkála-Šá,’ and I’m about to complete this project. It’s, it’s actually been, I’ve been working on it for about 15 years. Uh, and, and w-w-what the work is, I mean, I’ll discover work further is, um…Years ago I was, I was doing a concert with a composer, Louis Ballard, he’s a Quapaw, uh, native composer. He is no longer with us. He lived, I think, almost to his nineties, and he’s regarded as being one of the first native composers, uh, at least to, to gain worldwide recognition. And, but at the same time, I was thinking, you know, Lou-Louis couldn’t have been the first, there must have been somebody in the 1800s composing music. And that’s how I came upon, uh, this figure Zitkala-Sa, which means Redbird. And she’s a Dakota woman. She is known for composing a work called the Sun Dance Opera. And she actually composed that in Salt Lake City. I think maybe at BYU, BYU has the score, the actual score. But, um, but that’s my entry into this, this fascinating figure, poets know her because she wrote poetry, writers know her because she wrote fiction and essays and oratory, uh, others know her through her political work or her policy works. She founded the National Council of the American Indian and, um, and was quite an active person and influential person in, uh, in American Indian history, contemporary American Indian history. And, at the same time, sometimes controversial, too. I wanted to research this, uh, Zitkala-Sa’s life and learn about the artwork she was making; the writing. And the, the policy she helped devise and, um, and wanted to write a tribute to her. But at the same time did not want to make it specifically about her. As I recognize that Zitkala-Sa had to navigate and negotiate obstacles in the early 20th century. I wanted to think, well, who’s doing that today, which artists do I know, which indigenous women do I know today, who are also musicians, that are doing that. And so “Zitkala-Sa” is a series of 13 single-page graphic scores that tell the story of these friends of mine.

P: Uh huh, I it’s, uh, it’s- I think it’s really beautiful because it brings about, uh, an uncovering of some past and connecting it to the present. And, you know, you mentioned erasure at the beginning of the interview, and I think, you know, it’s, it’s very important to a lot of people. And every- I think all of our society right now, to really uncover, you know, that erasure and really…rethink history in so many ways, and also to log, log the current history so that they can’t be erased again. Um, so I just, I really appreciate that connection. It’s, it’s a really beautiful project. Um, are there, are there other collaborations you’re working on right now? I know, um, I was looking at your, your Instagram maybe a month or more ago, and there was a little short documentary made and you were supposed to not be in Albuquerque, right now, right?

R: That’s correct. Yeah. Um, my, my wife, uh, her name is Candice Hopkins. She’s clean-cut, Tagish from the Yukon, uh, also, uh, recognized as a, as a curator, worldwide, of, of contemporary and Indigenous, Indigenous art. Uh, we were supposed to be in Toronto as she’s working on the Toronto Biennial, the second edition of the Toronto biennial. Uh, but of course COVID shut that down. So we are back home in New Mexico, which I’m happy about.

P: It’s yeah, it’s probably easier to be a little more productive on your own work when you’re at home. Um, and there was another project, too. I’m trying to think of what it was called. Um, “The Colony”, I believe.

R: Oh yeah, that’s the project- well, I’ll tell you the long story of that, and I hope it doesn’t go too long, um, that is a project of a good friend Inuit Cannupa Hanska Luger, uh, uh, Papa, Papa Lakota artist from, uh, Standing Rock and based currently in the, in Northern New Mexico. Um, he, uh, also is a collaborator of mine. as we recently collaborated on an opera called “Sweet Land”, which premiered in Los Angeles right before COVID hit and it actually shut down the opera. Um, but, um, he also had, uh, this other large project that was happening this year, which he was going to be creating a settlement of an Indig- of Indigenous artists to go live in Plymouth, UK. Uh, this year being the anniversary, I think, the 400 year anniversary of, of the Mayflower. And so, you know, uh, of course, uh, inverting that history and, and creating a new, a new kind of creation story of a colony over in, in the UK. That did not happen, unfortunately, because of COVID, as well. So what they did is move that entire project, which is called “Settlement”, uh, onto an online platform and the same artists are going to be moving their projects into that virtual space to be presented. So…

P: I see. Apologies for getting the title wrong, saying settlement instead of colony, but I like the idea of colony because it’s like, it’s like sending the colony back, you know, it’s like a reversal of history, you know? Um, and, um, and also, I don’t want to overlook your wife because her- what she’s been doing is also incredible work. So I want to encourage people to look her work, work up. We’ll link all these, um, all these projects to the interview and people can find more information on our website or your website. Um, so I don’t want to overlook any of that. Um, it’s interesting that this, this year was the 400th anniversary because the- in Mexico, this coming year is the 500th anniversary of, um, you know, uh, contact there, and colonization beginning, um, the process of colonization beginning. Um, and so, um, I- one of the things that you also mentioned a little bit back was the drawings that you do. Um, and I know that that lives in your website. I mean, I know it becomes things like album art, I believe, right? Some of it? And, um, I’m curious, like, do you ever show the drawings specifically, or is that something that is just used for your own process?

R: I started to because I realized that the art people like that kind of thing, you know, I think a lot of them are still struggling how to figure out how to present sound or sound works. So, it’s kind of a thing where curators like scores, you know, and, and I, I guess I have no problem exhibiting those now, but it’s, it’s been fun to be able to collaborate with, um, you know, printmakers and, and seeing how we can turn these scores into physical objects. Of course, my preference is still that they get performed. They’re not just to look at, in fact to me that’s secondary, they are merely vehicles to produce sound and performance. But I draw, I mean, I eventually- they all start out as drawings. They all start off as ideas, as gestures, as symbols, either, um, bent or hacked from classical Western notation, or they become a mixture of other things I’ve seen of, of geometries. And, and iconography from my tribe or from the Southwest. Um, a lot of these, I find them very expressive symbols. And so they, a lot of that kind of thing, they become sketches and then the best of them become, uh, music notations.

P: Hmm. I see. I see. And as, um, as we were talking about prior, I’m, I’m jumping around a lot, cause I just have a lot of questions for you. We haven’t really talked before in depth about any of this. So, um, you know, I feel like this interview could go on for hours, but we don’t have that much time. Um, the, so I want to jump back because we talked- I, I brought up the fact that you are on the road a lot, or you brought up that earlier, as well, in the interview. Um, what, you know, ‘cause we are still in this pandemic, um, I’m wondering what, what does a normal day look like for you?

R: Well, I’m very happy that I’m in Albuquerque because there is more space. I’m not cooped up in an apartment. Uh, we have a home here. We’ve had a home here for 10 years. Um, but w-we are rarely here. We are always traveling. So it’s very nice to just unpack our stuff and be back in our own house for, for a change. And so- my normal day, though, is going to the studio every day, as early as seven in the morning, and staying until nighttime. Just working on everything, um, whether it’s a score, whether it’s recording, I’m able to record in my studio. I also run a record label. I put out other people’s music because I, I just love other people’s music here in Albuquerque that are doing interesting things, other artists. And so I pack up, I pack up records that I’ve been releasing of, uh, musicians, and I go to the post office and mail those off. Uh, I try to practice guitar, I do Zooms all day with people. I write emails. Uh, I’m working on a film right now that is going to- it’s a short film for an operetta. That’s going to premiere in January. So I’ve been editing that, uh, I go through the shoe box and the hard drives to see what I’m going to do next week. I, uh, I, I used to deal with all the business stuff, too, but I-I’ve been able to have some assistance there recently, which is nice. Um, I don’t know. I w-w-we have two horses, we try to ride the horses sometimes.

P: Um, wow. Okay.

R: I don’t know. I don’t know what else. Um, I…

P: It sounds like you’re a true believer in, you know, that was like an old quote that, ‘Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working.’

R: Yeah, yeah, I know for sure. And I teach, too. This semester I taught at, uh, as visiting faculty at Bard College. And also I have the ongoing project, the Native American Composer Apprenticeship Project, where every August I go to the reservation where I’m from, and also Hopi and Salt River Pima reservations, and teach young high school students to write string quartets. This year was different. I wasn’t able to go as, as we all know, the reservations were hit very hard by, uh, by the pandemic. And so everything was done online, which was very hard because a lot of these students don’t have even running water or internet or electricity; many of them don’t. And so, uh, definitely the internet connection is inadequate. So we, we did the best we could to do this kind of, uh, online learning with those students. I have huge respect for their regular teachers who, who are working with them, throughout the year, during this time.

P: Yeah. I’m so glad you brought up that project because that’s, that was one of my questions I was going to ask you about. And I’m curious, how long has that been going on? Um, and how, um, like what, I guess, what, what are some of the takeaways that you’ve learned from working with those communities? Um, you know, they are, you know, one of them is your, your intimate community. But then, um, there’s others that, you know, that each community is, is individual as well. And I’m just curious to know what, what you’ve learned from that process and, um, and teaching? Because you mainly teach quartet scores, I believe, or work on quartet composition. Um, so what maybe, what are some of the, uh, what has been the process for you in learning how to teach that? ‘Cause, it’s such a long question, sorry, but I feel like that’s a, maybe a distant art form or expressive form for a lot of people in a rural university,

R: Right? So the, the program is called the Native American Composer Apprenticeship Project. It was started in the year 2000 by, uh, the Grand Canyon Music Festival and as an outreach project because they were doing this music festival at the grand Canyon. But, of course, it was, yeah, it was the old white guys, you know; Mozart and so forth. And, and didn’t really, uh, engage with the indigenous community that surrounds the grand, the grand Canyon. So fortunately they thought of this idea, along with Brent Michael Davids, Native composer based out of Minneapolis, to have an education component. Now, I came on and, and replaced, uh, Brent and, and became the composer in residence in 2004, after I finished Cal arts and have been the composer in residence since. And, and what happens is I, I teach 30 kids every year across, anywhere from three to six schools, uh, to write for string quartet. And the reason the string quartet is that’s, that was the, uh, uh, kind of the, the initial ensemble that had gathered for the very first iteration. And has since, you know, just been a tradition of a program to do that, but it’s also a very good place to start as the, the instruments are all somewhat uniform and all share techniques, uh, that, that, it’s, it’s a good place to start for, for a beginning composer. But also a lot of these kids, they play guitar. And if there’s one thing about the Navajo reservation there, you can go to some of these high schools and just see headstocks of guitars all the way down the hallway, boys and girls, you know, a lot of metalheads, punk kids, um, that tradition is very much alive. And so, to translate guitar writing to strings can be a very natural process and transition. And as I’ve mentioned before, I, you know, I’m only really there for a week. And, if there, and when I do work with students for longer, we get to talk about their influences, the, their traditional tribal music and see how all of this can come together. And, but oftentimes I’m only working with them for only one week. So they have five days to do this. They have five days to learn how to read notes on a paper, if they never have before they have, uh, to learn the extended techniques of the instrument. And to actually write a five, three to five-minute composition. Now on the point of, of what education they come with, that’s, that’s one of the things I’ve learned and was already aware of, but have really learned about the, the situation out there as most of these schools do not have art and music programs. And sadly, that’s not a condition of just the reservations. That’s all over the United States is a lot of these programs have become cut. And on the other hand, there are a few of these schools that do have great music programs. Chinle, where I’m from, for example, has an amazing music teacher named Eric Swanson. But I believe my guess is that these music programs have come about because the sports team needs their marching band and, therefore, mood musicians to play that music. But, but nonetheless, there are, there are very serious young musicians out. And so a lot of them do read music notation, and I, I am not requiring them to write something that sounds classical, nor am I asking them to write something that sounds Navajo, for instance. My hope is that all of this emerges. And I can steer it when I hear something that I like or think is interesting, but all of this influence, whether it’s marching band music, it’s hip hop, it’s metal, it’s traditional Navajo, or Hopi music. Uh, all of that can get blended together, and filtered through these, these chamber instruments. And to me, that’s the project. That’s what the project is all about.

P: Interesting. Interesting. And I, um, I immediately thought about the music scene in Navajo nation. When you talked about the guitars, I was like, oh yeah, of course. There’s like a huge music scene in Shiprock, for example, um, it’s got this total underground music thing going on. That’s, that’s really cool. Actually. We talked about that in another interview, too. Music is such a part of a culture of the four corners I feel. Um, it’s, um, I, I’m very, um, just blown away with all that you’ve been able to do and accomplish in your career. And I feel like you have so much more to come. Um, but I, I want to be respectful of your time and, uh, we have a few short answer questions I’d like to get to before I let you go. Yeah.

R: Yeah. I’ve got twenty more minutes.

P: You’ve got more time?

R: Well, yeah, we can go up to 9…let’s say 9:55. Okay, cool. Okay.

P: That sounds good. That sounds good to me. Yeah. I just don’t wanna, I don’t wanna take too much of your time up ‘cause you have a lot of projects going on and um, well, so I guess I’ll jump back to that then. So I’m curious when you’re teaching the, the, the string quartet music, I know in your own scores you do a lot of interesting things. Like, um, like I was, I was looking at the work you were doing with the Kronos Quartet and, uh, there’s a video they have on their website where they talk about how you have accents on the rests, you know, and you have, uh, instructions on how the group interacts, you know, with the piece. And, um, is that something that, is that you add to your, your, um, kind of foundational level instruction? Or do you how- I guess how do you structure that?

R: Everything is detailed in a instruction sheet. Uh, things are placed, let’s say something like an accented rest is placed on the score and might be a very contradictory action. Um, and like some of the other extended techniques, maybe multiple contradictions stacked on top of each other, but they’re all very much detailed about how to execute them. And in the case of the Kronos, uh, uh, measure there that you’re referencing, uh, I describe what one to do, but I’m not necessarily speaking about what it means in the score. I don’t give that information in the score. I like to save that for a discussion with the musicians in person. I like that to be a conversation amongst ourselves maybe kept private, but of course they could share it further as they share the composition with others. But I don’t feel like it’s something that needs to be within the, the formal document on the score.

R: And so, um, so they can exist as, as maybe other conceptual elements of the piece itself. Maybe it’s a part of the narrative. Maybe it’s a part of generating the shared experience that the four musicians are going to have amongst themselves. And the artifacts of that shared experience are going to become the sound that reaches the audience or the listener. But a lot of these compositions are made just for the person experiencing them or working with it or, or spending the time with, with what it is and making it their own. I have, even though I’m, I’m prescribing and detailing actions, uh, at a certain point, I hope that it becomes something unique to the performer and becomes their composition.

P: That’s, uh, that’s really interesting to me, especially with, uh, you know, the history of performance scores, you know. And you know, that, that is a thing of like- if, if people listening know like, you know, you can, you can find like a, uh, Yoko Ono performance score and, and perform her piece essentially based upon what she, how she’s described it. And like, the way you just described this music is it’s almost like an individual, um, performance score for that individual musician. I love that it’s like this communication and learning experience for the individual and the group. And, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m sure that music at large, every time a piece is performed, there’s learning that happens. But I, I really, I’m kind of fascinated by that intentionality of, of that process that you put into the scores.

R: Well, well, yeah, thank you. Um, I suppose that’s, that’s what my interest is. Ultimately. I mean, sound is just the way that it can extend to others, you know, other listeners, others to, to share that shared experience. But, uh, and I can’t quite pinpoint it exactly with music. What I’m wanting to talk about. I mean, rarely is it narrative rarely, is it, um, I mean, unless it has lyrics, then you can say a whole lot more, you know, you can, you can be extremely political, or topical or, um, or like I said, narrative. But at the same time, there’s a lot of instrumental music and, and I’m not seeking purpose of what that music is. Music doesn’t need to exist for no other reason than it’s something that’s just a voice from, from somewhere. We don’t even know where it comes from. We- it’s, it’s a mystery, it’s a huge grand mystery that we’re all privileged to be able to experience as living things. But yes, what else can it do? It can, it can provide sounds that nobody’s ever heard before. I suppose it could provide meditation. Um, but I’m really interested in, in the shared experience and that shared experience is not always something that might be at peace. For instance, it might contain contradictions. It might make, it might make one, a performer do something they are not accustomed to doing, but in doing so, I hope that it conjures some Sonic artifact that then extends in ways that were not anticipated.

P: Mm. Wow. It’s, uh, I, you know, I think the word ‘community’ is used a lot in contemporary art in the wrong way, but I feel like this is a, a way that you’re addressing, um, community through, through contemporary music. And, uh, I don’t know, I’m just, I’m quite drawn to that idea of how, uh, how we connect with individuals in such a way. And, you know, I, it, it’s really interesting to me from a standpoint of, you know, so much music that’s still performed now that was written a hundred years ago, it was performed exactly the same. And what, you know, what will one of your scores be performed as in a hundred years? You know? Um, and like what, what changes will happen? Um, what creative input will be there? Um, I don’t know. It makes me want to jump in a time machine and, like, figure out how, how they’ll be interpreted.

R: I love that idea. And, and I, I love that you brought up community because I feel a lot of times that is my work. A lot of these works while they are written for virtuosic musicians, I have many compositions that are written for non-musicians or beginning musicians or anybody can play them. Um, and so when we talk about community, I, uh, I feel like maybe in some ways, a lot of my work is to bring together these different people to engage in this shared experience. It’s a- Kronos quartet, of course, is going to always have this shared experience, or whatever string quartet ensemble takes on this particular piece. But other pieces are meant to bring together larger groups of people to, for instance, let’s say play drums on the street or to fire off a fire, you know, guns as part of the performance. Um, any number of… These things can, can be, um, can bring together different folks. And that’s what I’m, I’m really interested in, especially in these, this, these days of this consciousness and awareness of, of diversity and, you know, making space for artists of color, indigenous artists, black artists, women. Uh, these are all, these are all people who have been underrepresented in classical music, for instance, and, and other places, and other areas of the arts.

P: I hope, I hope people will dig into your music, um, after listening to this and, and your projects, not just your music, but all of your projects, because there’s a, there’s a wealth of creativity and a wealth of, um, inspiration, I think, that can be found through the work that you’ve done. All right. So I think it’d be great, now, if we could, um, go ahead and, and jump into some of the short answers because people are still, you know, living as isolated as, hopefully people are still living as isolated as they need to. To keep everybody safe. Um, and I think people are always looking for new forms of entertainment, of education, and, um, there’s a lot of opportunity to uplift voices. So just with a few short answer questions, I wanted to ask you a few things about what’s interesting to you. Like, what is, uh, a favorite album right now that you’re, you’re listening to?

R: Favorite album? Um, well, I, I listen, there’s, there’s a couple there. Uh, I always find myself listening to Funkadelic Parliament, uh, that group it’s, it’s endless for me to, you know, to get into that music, uh, especially when I have to feel motivated, but there’s also a, uh, a group I believe from the Bahamas called Exuma, which is also as kind of a rock, kind of hybrid band, in the seventies that, uh, I found myself listening to. I mean, I’ve been listening to this album for a long time too, but it’s another one that I kind of returned to. Um, I think it’s just called Exuma, self-titled.

P: Okay. Awesome. After, after, check them out, too. I don’t know about that work at all. The, and you mentioned that you love films, I’m guessing you still like films. Is there a favorite recent movie that you, that pops out in your mind?

R: Recent, um…

P: Or something you watched recently? It doesn’t have to have a recent-

R: To be completely honest with you, I have not been able to watch any movies during quarantine because I’ve been so busy. But I will answer your question in that I, uh, had an opportunity to be able to be one of the, uh, jurors on the ImagiNATIVE Film Festival this year. And so I w- I did watch 30 or so of those films. And while I, I’m not gonna pinpoint any particular one that- to, um, look at, I do encourage listeners to check out that film festival in general, uh, which every year or so cases, some, some of the newest, best indigenous films being made all over the world.

P: Wow. Um, so that, that leads me to what I like to be the sort of ending question for the interviews, which is if you had, um, a little bit of advice for a young person that’s beginning their professional career in your field, or maybe even more general, if you wish for a creative field at large, um, what would be a piece of advice that you would give a young person or maybe your past-self?

R: There’s a few of them. Um, I don’t know about my past self because I’m pretty happy how things worked out, ha ha. But, um, but, uh, a young person, I tell young people, my students this all the time that, um, and this, some of this may sound cliche, of course, there’s the regular stay in school, work hard. I think young people, I have- I tell them, you could go get a nine to five job anywhere. And, but if you want to be an artist, it’s like, uh, like I said, eight to eight, 12 hour job, you know, eight in the morning to eight at night, that’s what you’re signing up for. If you really want to do this more specifically, I tell young people, especially these, these boys who, um, really, you know, sometimes cocky and want to be in a band and, and, uh, you know, make music. I say, there’s not, there’s really nothing stopping you. This was pre COVID mind you. I would say you could borrow your, your family or your uncle’s truck and get your band together and go play at the town, you know, a hundred miles down the way. And you know, you play in your own town, you start going to the next town, you start doing that every weekend, you play all over and you go a little further each time. And maybe that band doesn’t survive. You form a new band. And maybe if that- maybe none of these bands work, you go do it solo, and you go play every as much as you can in all these places. And one personal shop, nobody will show up, you’ll play for the door guy, you know, then five people show up. Then 10 people show up. But that’s what you gotta do. But I’m still doing that. I’m still going. Sometimes I’m playing shows and five people show up, but that’s what you have to do. That’s the, that’s the work. And, um, and you just, you have to practice your instrument and you try to learn as much as you can. Now there’s YouTube. I mean, you can learn about anything right now on YouTube, so I tell young people about that. Other more general advice is you have to be nice. You should be nice. I mean, there’s healthy competition, but you, you should speak, um, uh, kindly and positively about your colleagues’ and friends’ work, if you like it, you know. And if you don’t like it, don’t say anything. I mean, critic, criticism is one thing, you know, uh, you know, but, um, you know, talking bad about somebody else’s work does not lead anybody anywhere. So there’s that thing. And then ultimately the, because of that, both bits of advice there: the jumping in the truck and playing and the, uh, talking positively is that it’s a very, very, very small world. And both of those, um, pieces of advice will lead you eventually to realizing how true that is.

P: Mm. Yeah. I think that’s, uh, that’s all very, very valid, very valuable advice for people in, in many creative forms, because there is, you know, there’s another old saying that is, “You don’t, um, you don’t strike while the iron’s hot. You make the iron hot by striking.” So it’s like this idea of like, you, you make it happen through action. Um, and I- yeah, I think it’s a really strong way to finish this talk. Um, I very much appreciate your time, Raven. Uh, it’s been wonderful to get to know you better. And I look forward to hopefully when all of this, uh, ends to hopefully meet you in person.

R: Yeah, thank you, Peter, and yeah, we’ll surely talk again down the line.

REFERENCES:

Postcommodity: http://postcommodity.com/index.html
Whitney Biennial: https://whitney.org/exhibitions/2017-biennial#exhibition-feature
documenta 14: https://www.documenta14.de/en/
REDCAT: https://www.redcat.org/
San Francisco Electronic Music Festival: http://www.sfemf.org/
Chaco Canyon: https://www.nps.gov/chcu/index.htm
18th Biennale of Sydney: https://www.biennaleofsydney.art/archive/18th-biennale-of-sydney/
The Kennedy Center: https://www.kennedy-center.org/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAvP6ABhCjARIsAH37rbQ99n-aWEFiLBHpcYvu88fSGLj0s1Mrpxs0_cjlYYMBlUh4S_EEiXwaAndfEALw_wcB
Native American Composer Apprentice Project: https://grandcanyonmusicfest.org/nacap/
United States Artists Award: https://www.unitedstatesartists.org/award/
Creative Capital: https://creative-capital.org/
Native Arts and Cultures Foundations Fellowship: https://www.nativeartsandcultures.org/programs/fellowship-program
American Academy’s Berlin Prize: https://www.americanacademy.de/apply/apply-for-a-fellowship/#
Chinle: https://chinle.navajochapters.org/
Navajo Nation: https://www.navajo-nsn.gov/
Canyon de Chelly: https://www.nps.gov/cach/index.htm
Georgia O’Keeffe: https://www.okeeffemuseum.org/about-georgia-okeeffe/
Repellent Fence: https://www.throughtherepellentfence.com/
Post-commodity: https://www.fordfoundation.org/campaigns/the-art-of-change-meet-our-fellows/postcommodity/
Pueblo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puebloans
Apache Tribe: https://apachetribe.org/history/
Santa Fe Indian Market: https://swaia.org/
Jemez Mountains: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jemez_Mountains#:~:text=The%20Jemez%20Mountains%20(%5B%CB%A1h%C9%9Bm%C9%9Bz,Spanish%20arrived%20in%20New%20Mexico
The forest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Fe_National_Forest
Cal Arts: https://calarts.edu/
James Tenney: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPXnXMm4THg
Morton Subotnick: http://www.mortonsubotnick.com/
Tenderizor: https://tenderizor.bandcamp.com/
John Cage: https://aaep1600.osu.edu/book/01_Cage.php
Matachine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsnLcmUF7V4
El Topo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2qg3QBTHXM
‘For Zitkála-Šá’: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zitkala-Sa
Louis Ballard: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Louis-Ballard
Quapaw Nation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quapaw
Zitkala-Sa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_opera
Sun Dance Opera: https://www.britannica.com/topic/The-Sun-Dance
National Council of the American Indian: https://www.ncai.org/
For Zitkala-Sa: https://www.sfu.ca/galleries/SFUGalleriesEvents/2019/ForZitkala-Sa.html
Toronto Biennial: https://torontobiennial.org/
Tagish from the Yukon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagish,_Yukon
Papa Lakota: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunkpapa
Standing Rock: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_Rock_Indian_Reservation
“Sweet Land”: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/28/arts/music/sweet-land-opera.html
Mayflower: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayflower
“Settlement”: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53e7c769e4b0811013112d5e/t/5cec067471c10bbe073180a6/1558972052927/Settlement+2020_+Project+Description.pdf
Raven Chacon Website: http://spiderwebsinthesky.com/
Bard College: https://www.bard.edu/
Native American Composers Apprentice Project: https://grandcanyonmusicfest.org/nacap/
Hopi Reservation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopi_Reservation
Salt River Pima Reservation: https://www.srpmic-nsn.gov/
Grand Canyon Music Festival: https://grandcanyonmusicfest.org/
Brent Michael Davids: https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/native-american-composers/
Eric Swanson: https://navajotimes.com/edu/new-program-to-extend-music-ed-across-rez/
Shiprock: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiprock,_New_Mexico
Four Corners: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Corners
Kronos Quartet: http://50ftf.kronosquartet.org/composers/raven-chacon
Yoko Ono: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoko_Ono
Funkadelic Parliament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjKFCYzqq-A
Exuma: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYjYgiL1Kg0
ImagiNATIVE Film Festival: https://imaginenative.org/

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