Episode 1.3
Interview with Jorge Rojas, by Peter Hay on May 14th, 2020
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Peter (P): I’m having a conversation today with a multidisciplinary artist, independent curator, and art educator originally from the State of Morelos in Mexico. He studied Art at the University of Utah and at Bellas Artes in San Miguel de Allende, Mexico. They make performances examining cultural, social, and mediated forms of communication. He is interested in performance art for its ability to bring people together, as well as provoke public participation, action, and collaboration. His interests include spiritual histories, interpretations of ancient rites and customs, institutional critique, and responding to abuses of power. In recent years, his performances have primarily responded to political injustice and cultural tensions. Their work and curatorial projects have been exhibited nationally and internationally in venues including Museo del Barrio and Queens Museum of Art in New York; New World Museum and Project Row Houses in Houston; Ex Convento del Carmen, Guadalajara; FOFA Gallery at Concordia University, Montreal; Utah Museum of Fine Arts and Utah Museum of Contemporary Art in Salt Lake City. Since 2015, They have been director of learning and engagement at the Utah Museum of Fine Arts, where they oversee all education, community engagement, and adult programming initiatives for the Museum. Jorge Rojas is a passionate advocate for advancing racial and cultural justice through the arts.
(P) Well, welcome Jorge! Thank you for joining me today.
Jorge (J): Thanks so much for inviting me.
P: So, I just kind of gave a little information about you and your background. I’m wondering if you would want to tell us a little bit about yourself.
J: Sure! Um, well, as you know I’m a visual artist. My practice has mainly consisted in the last 12 years in performance, but I have visual arts training so I’m, I continue to make paintings and sculptures and photographs and installations and videos. I enjoy being a multidiscipline artist. I’ve also enjoyed focusing on performance art. I was born in Mexico, have gone back and forth between Mexico and the United States all my life.
P: Uh-huh
J: I’m currently based in Salt Lake City, Utah. Um, and yeah! It’s, uh, this is kind of a crazy time to be on this planet with, uh, with everything going on with this pandemic and COVID-19. But yeah, I’ve been, uh, I’ve been, I feel privileged to have this sort of experience of going, of experiencing two very different countries as I’ve been growing up going back and forth between the two.
P: Yes. Yeah, no it’s, in reading about your background a little bit, it seems like that has been very influential on your work and, um, it does kind of make me wonder how did you get into the arts?
J: I was kind of born into the arts. Um, I come from a very artistic family. Um, we, my mom, by the way, my, I grew up in a, my household was basically, my mom raised us, me and four siblings. And, uh, my mom really was passionate about the arts. She used to teach theater, she, you know, she loved to dance, she loved music, and so we all grew up playing, uh, musical instruments.
P: OK
J: We all played at the very least the piano. Uh, and we all played an additional instrument. My sisters were all dancers. One of, uh, two of my sisters were doing ballroom dancing. Uh, one of them, actually at the international competitive level.
P: Oh cool!
J: Uh, and going back between Mexico and the United States, uh, um, I lived in Guadalajara, Mexico for a while where I was playing in, uh, in, uh, punk rock bands. So making music and so I think it was, uh, trying to, as sort of the black sheep of my family, trying to differentiate myself from all of these other incredible talented and, you know, artistic people. Like, I, that’s when I decided to go into the visual arts.
P: OK
J: Uh, and so I studied, um, visual arts. I started taking, art classes in high school which is when I first kind of thought “Oh, this is, this is kind of fun and cool!” And then I studied art in college at the University of Utah and then I moved to San Miguel de Allende in Guanajuato and studied at El Nigromante Bellas Artes and uh, that’s when I, uh, really kind of decided that I wanted to pursue the arts as a, as a life long career. Uh, I fell in love, you know, I decided that this would be an area that would challenge me and keep me interested. Uh, and, um, keep me excited for the rest of my life so I’ve been doing it ever since.
P: Oh wow. So, you know, something that I didn’t see when I was, you know, getting ready for this interview was any of, any videos on your Vimeo of the old punk rock band. What happened to those?
J: You know, we were, there was not a lot of video capturing going on back then. We did actually record in the studio and…
P: Oh wow!
J: …and there was, uh, there was actually some audio recordings at one point I got really, uh, upset with my life and everything and I ended up destroying them. So there is no record of them. But I can tell you that, um, the first, uh, the first band was, uh, called TNT, as in like, you know, ACDC TNT’s dynamite kind of thing. Um, and, uh, and then the second band was called Sicks Pack. Like, uh, playing with the words sick. As in like S-I-C-K, like a pack of sickos?
P: Yeah
J: And then, you know, um, I had, I had a great time. Um, I had just moved from Provo, Utah, but to Guadalajara and it took me all but about a week to, to be like “Oh my god, this is like a real city. This is really exciting!” And I met some friends that were also musicians and, uh, we just started, you know, We were the epitome of a garage punk band. Uh, you know, now we were always opening and we were probably, uh, you know, drinking too much before we went onstage because we were so nervous. And just doing stupid shit. It was, uh, it was, um, it made for some fun times. And, uh, and actually that’s one of the first times I was actually performing in public so yeah.
P: Yeah! I was going to say, that seems like almost the best kind of preface to becoming a performance artist you could have, is like you are comfortable in front of a crowd like expressing yourself and like your full emotional range, you know?
J: Yes, exactly.
P: So, um, so I’m curious, you know you’ve done quite a bit over the past, um, maybe ten years, I guess, longer of course. You’ve been working in this field for a while. Um, but I’m curious to know a little bit about your, your creative trajectory from works like “My Space”, um, that you created, uh, in a storefront, correct? Um, kind of for the public or in collaboration with the public to, um, the works you’re making now that are very much socially engaged. And I’m just kind of, you know, this could be probably like the whole podcast if you were to, you know, answer this with every single work. But I’m just kind of curious to know what that trajectory was for you creatively problem solving, uh, like how it is you’ve come to make the work you make now, um, kind of based upon, um, your studies and experiments you were doing, um, during that time period of like My Space.
J: Yeah! So, I’ll try to make it brief. That’s, I mean we’re talking about, I don’t know, approximately like fifteen years of work.
P: Yeah
J: That you just asked me about. But basically, um, what happened is, um, I was living in New York City. Um, I had a studio in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. And, uh, I was, I had just done a, I was, been accepted to do a residency at the Vermont Studio Center. And, you know, I went there, uh, with the strong desire to really just like assess my practice to, like, to really dive deep into like trying to understand what I was making and why I was making it. And at that time I was making paintings and sculptures and my paintings looked like sculptures and my sculptures, um, had elements of audio and, uh, other kinds of sensory elements. I was working a lot with wax. I was working with sandpaper. I was very interested in, like, the sort of the tactility and the texture of the work. So I would, I would say that, uh, at that point, you know, uh, I, that’s when I really started questioning my own practice and thinking like “why am I doing, what am I doing?” And the, the, the kind of epiphany that I came out of this was that, um, you know, my work that I was making was really, it begged to be touched. It wanted to be experienced on a visceral level. And, um, so then I started thinking about like, so like, “Ok, what does that mean?” And I understood that there was a, a part of me that really wanted, wanted to connect, um, my art with people. With people is the key aspect of this and on a very human level. And so, um, so then I thought “well, wouldn’t performance make sense?” And, uh, just as a way to kind of like stand off the wall and off the pedestal and, or off the video screen. And so, uh, and then I was like “Why aren’t you doing performance?” And then, and then, back to what I was saying earlier, is like, I came from a family of, of performers. My sisters were dancers. My, my, you know, every time my mom had people over for dinner it was always like “Ok!” It was like we were like a Mexican Osmond family, you know? It was… We were like, “Time to perform!” Like, or, you know, “Hugo, get over there and play, you know, and play the trumpet!” or “play, you know, play the piano.” And we all took, you know, we were all expected to perform. And so, and so then I realized there was a part of me that shut that off to be different, to set myself apart from my siblings and from the rest of my family. And that’s why I chose painting. But there was a part of me that was, like, deeply, part of my being that, that, that wanted to perform. And that wanted to connect with audiences on a different level and so I thought “Ok, well, fuck it. I’m going to try it. I’m going, I’m going to do performance art.” And at that time, um, I was also, I, you know there was some, like, new technologies coming out, like live streaming technologies. I mean, we’re talking like twelve, thirteen years ago.
P: Sure.
J: And, um, so this is way before Skype or, you know, FaceTime or, yeah, any of that. And, uh, but there were some, you know, YouStream and some kind of like emerging live streaming networks that were coming out. So, I started, I started experimenting with performance from my apartment back in Brooklyn, where I was living in Bushwick. So I would like, find props or things around my, my, my apartment and I would just start performing to random people via live stream. And so, uh, so I thought “God, this is really fascinating” Like this sort of idea of performing online to random people. And then I got so curious that I started like, diving deep in researching into what, you know, what maybe other artists were doing with live streaming. And, uh, then I had the, this idea, I said “OK, I’m going to start next, I’m going, I’m going to do a call-out and curate,” because I also, I’m also an independent curator, I decided that I would curate an exhibition and do an international call-out for any artist that was interested in utilizing live streaming technologies for their work. Specifically, specifically if they had a performative aspect. That was called “Low Lives”. “Low” as in the very low, uh, transmission that we were able to get on the internet back then. You know, this is like AOL, you know, kind of times. And, uh, which, you know, which brought with it all of its, uh, you know, like, uh, defect, you know, it had?
P: Sure, yeah, the glitches and…
J: Right. There was all the glitch to it which I was, which I thought was really, really beautiful because we’re also entering into this world where everything was so high-definition and high-polished and, you know, high-finish. And I, there was something about the glitch that, that I just found really kind of poetic and beautiful. Anyway…
P: The New Aesthetic time period when that like, that idea of like New Aesthetic was coming around too.
J: That’s exactly right and so. So that’s when “Low Lives” was born. So low as in “low” transmission, low-quality, low-aesthetic. “Lives” as in live performance and live streaming. And so, and also playing with the words low-lives is like performance artists we’re kind of like the low-lives of the art world. Because we’re the weirdos doing the weird shit. And so um, so for the first year I, um, I connected, um, uh, FiveMyles in Brooklyn, Diaspora Vibe Gallery in Brooklyn, I mean, in Miami and, uh, Project Row Houses in Houston and they signed up to it and we basically, uh, presented thirty live performances happening from like twelve different countries…
P: Oh wow!
J: …and, um, all connected and networked. And, and each venue in Miami and, and Brooklyn, and, uh, Houston were actually projecting in, in large format in their venues these, these livestream performances as they were happening in real time. And that’s how “Low Lives” was born. That turned into a five-year labor of love. Uh, which continued to grow and grow. At its peak it became, uh, you know, a, a two-day festival with like sixty performances each year. Um, we, I think we were at its peak, we were working with thirty different presenters all over the world including in Japan and, uh, Australia and India. And it was all experimental and it was very, very exciting. Anyway, that’s when I fell in love with live streaming and, and, and, and the possibilities of these technologies to present work across both political and physical and cultural borders.
P: Sure.
J: And then I’ll, and then I’ll get to that last part of what you were asking about, like, you know, you know, how did that turn into my performances. So I started doing this series called “My Space”.
P: Uh-huh
J: Remember the, you remember the social network called MySpace?
P: I do! Oh yeah!
J: I actually didn’t even have a MySpace account but I thought it was good name to think about ‘my space’ as like what would happen if I got invited into a gallery or into a museum and then they gave me a space and then I, I said “Ok, now it’s my space.” And, and by making it my space I would have the power to turn it into a community space.
P: Yeah
J: So basically it was the beginning of, uh, when I really started doing institutional critique work. Where I was invited by galleries and museums. Uh, one example is in the Ex-Convento de Carmen in Guadalajara, Mexico, where I basically moved into the store front window, um, of, of the museum and lived there for a week. So these were durational performances that were 24/7 for seven days. Uh, 24/7 where I would live in these spaces, do live streaming, um, the whole time. And the basic idea is I would invite people to come into the space off the street and make art in the space. And whatever art they made would stay up once I left. So the art that the community made became the art in the store front window of the museum. So it was a way for me to shift those power dynamics of how art gets into museums and, uh, and also just, just you know, making, bringing to light the fact that museums are often exclusive or non-inclusive or not very inclusive spaces. We’ve gotten a little bit better but, since then, but, uh, but just saying like “How can museums stop being these, and galleries, being these ivory tower spaces that actually are welcoming and inclusive?”
P: Sure. And I feel like that was time, too, where, I mean, museums were saying “Hey, we’re inclusive,” you know, like, “we include everybody.” Like “We’ve never said people couldn’t come in.”
J: Yeah, right.
P: But it’s like all of a sudden where there was this cultural shift happening of, you know, well, I think it’s still happening of course, where creating that definition change of like there’s a huge difference between like, you know, saying people are welcome and then making people feel welcome. You know? Like make them feel like it is a space for them. Uh, and I, like, I think about like there was a video on, I think it was on your Vimeo. It was a little clip called “Glue.”
J: Yeah
P: And it was like you interacting…
J: …That was shot at Ex-Convento…
P: And it was, but you were interacting with these like teenagers who were, you know, hanging outside of the, outside of the gallery like getting high basically.
J: Literally after the museum was shut, was closed.
Both: Yeah!
P: And it’s like that could pos-, that was probably the first time, well, I’m not going to make too big of a, I don’t know, but, uh, that’s probably one of the first times though that those teenagers ever really interacted with that institution, you know? And like, how, how crazy is that? Like, all you had to do is be there.
J: Yeah! And you know, and, and it was also kind of like an interesting thing that the performance was not about me. It was about them. Like if you watch that piece, “Glue”, which I love, um, because it gives different meanings to glue, right? Not only like this, this intoxicant but it is also like, what is it that connects people? But, um, but yes. Like, but, almost 95% of the time, the camera is on them. And, um, and they’re, they’re actually, you know, we’re communicating through the glass and they’re writing signs. Or like “Is this on YouTube?” and like, you know, like, you know, “Come out and hang out with us.” And by the way, those, that, that, that band of, of musicians and youth that were like street, street youth there in Guadalajara, they would come back almost every single day that I was there. And we would just hang out.
P: I love that! I love that! And it’s, you know, it’s also super interesting how having you there but not just you, but you and a camera changes the whole interaction as well. And I think that that’s an amazing precursor to like the massive amount of content we see of people like recording each other and themselves now, you know? It’s, I’ve really, I really enjoy, like the technological context of that piece and like almost as this huge precursor to this wave that we have now of content.
J: Yeah, well that’s one of the benefits of being old.
P: We’re all…
J: You can try stuff out like way back in the day.
P: Yeah, yeah. No I think that’s, that’s really, um, an interesting piece and I, like, there was a lot of interesting work that I saw you were doing then that, um, and I’m curious to know like how do you as an artist determine, um, what is important for you to pursue or make. Like, you know, as artist, a lot of times you have lots of different ideas or, um, lots of concepts or even people telling you what to make so like how do you determine what is it that is really important for you to pursue?
J: Well, that’s such an interesting question. I would say that it, it changes through time, right? It changes as one kind of grows up as an artist and, um, you know, even like even now I’m a parent. I have a five-year-old and a seven-year-old, um, and, um, actually, wow. No, I have a seven-year-old and a nine-year-old. And so, um, so different things become important and, you know, as, as, you know, as you exist in the world. And, um, I would say that, um, for the most part, I’m a very kind of intuitive, um, you know, I base a lot of my choices on instinct.
P: Mhm.
J: And it’s often, my work is often, um, inspired by a feeling. Like either a feeling that, that I experience or a feeling that, that, uh, I want to experience in the world. And so then that feeling then, you know, maybe turns into an idea and then that idea maybe turns into, you know, then I define what kind of medium I want to work with for that, what I find might be the best medium for, to reach that feeling or to portray that feeling or to create an environment that, that, you know, that puts that feeling out into the world. Um, so, um, that, I would also say that has to do with what’s going on in the world, right? So, in the last, you know, since the last presidency here in the United States, um, since, you know, since the Trump administration…
P: Sure.
J: … Came into being, my practices changed enormously. Um, I, before my performance practice, uh, was often light-hearted. It was often, uh, you know, it had a sense of like joy and, uh, you know, mystical beauty and, you know, thinking about cultural tradition, you know, like I was reading tortillas. Like I was, like I do the “Tortilla Oracle” performance…”Tortilla Oracle” readings. But you know, it was all about, like connection and intuition and, uh, intimacy, and, and anything that I could do to just shift someone’s reality even for just a moment in their day was a worthwhile pursuit. And, for the last, I would say maybe four, five, maybe five, six years, um, well, certainly as long as, you know, Trump’s been in office, I’ve felt a responsibility, or a, or an obligation actually to make work that was responding to all of like the horrible injustices we’re seeing in the world.
P: Yeah.
J: And the country.
P: Yeah.
J: So now my work is about racial stereotyping, about police brutality. It’s about immigration. It’s about the separation of families, um, at the border. Um, you know, it’s about putting children and families in concentration camps. It’s about, um, um, my last piece which I can talk to you about too, later, uh, is called “Dance for Our Departed”. Um, you know, really addresses how, um, how this pandemic, um, and COVID-19, um, is, is, is, you know, in disproportionate amounts, making, um, people of color sick and dying. Right?
P: Sure.
J: And what does that do? It, it, it points a light, it points a light at the inequalities in, um, in this pandemic has like, made that much more clear. Um, and so, I always try to provide some sense of hope and some sense of like, uh, empowerment and some sense of unity because I understand that the only way anything will change is if, you know, us, the public people, um, are able to rise up. And say “Fuck you,” to the system.
P: Yeah. Exactly. And I, one of the things that I see in your work or have seen in your work, um, for a long time is, you know, the use of humor. You have a lot humor that you pull into the work. And you use humor as, seems like a way to draw people in and then make them question, you know? Um, and I’ve seen, I have seen that shift in the past few years of the work that you’ve been putting out there with the, uh, some of the performance you’ve done like “Hands Up Don’t Shoot” that was in the Utah Public Library, I believe?
J: Yep!
P: Uh, and, um…
J: That was at a performance art festival that, uh, we have here in Salt Lake City that, thank God that we have, because it’s one of the few venues where we can, um, do performance art.
P: What’s the, what’s the name of that again?
J: It’s just called Performance Art Festival, Performance Art Festival. And it’s, it happens in the main Salt Lake City Public Library where, which is this gorgeous building in downtown Salt Lake. Uh, where we have a two-day, uh, performance festival every year. And, uh, it’s been a major gift for those of us that are passionate about performance, to have an opportunity and a stage to, you know, to share our work.
P: Sure. Sure. And I know that you also have, um, you know, one of the things that is really interesting about, uh, about you in general and your work is, you know, I read in an article recently that you were interviewed in that you really see, um, all the aspects of your, your life and career as being a whole practice, you know. It’s not separated into these divisions but, um, it seems like, you know, the curatorial work you do, uh, the museum education work that you do and your own art practice sort of all melt together and inform each other. Uh, and I’m curious to know like since you sort of acknowledged that melting and has that shifted the work you make yourself? Or?
J: Yeah, absolutely. And thanks for doing your research. Um, that’s always refreshing, um, when someone actually knows, knows what I’ve been doing. Um, but yeah, so, you know, so I, I, I make art. I’m also an independent curator and I, I’m a museum, an art museum educator now. I’ve been doing that for the last five years and so before they used to, those three things used to exist as their own things, you know? And then, and then finally came to terms with the fact that, you know, they’re all, or I became comfortable with the idea that they all inform each other. And that they can all support each other and they can all challenge each other. And since that’s happened, it’s made my life a lot easier because, um, I consider all of those, those three aspects part of my practice. Um, instead of like, you know, each of them competing for my time and for my attention. So yeah, so like, you know, um, the work that I’m doing that we talk about earlier, like with “My Space” and “Low Lives”, and thinking about institutional critique, I bring with me into my museum job. And I’m thinking about decolonizing museums and I’m thinking about making museums, um, you know, more inclusive and more accessible and more welcoming and sort of trying to break down that ivory tower history of museums. And yet, and in every day I’m at work, I’m thinking about art and I’m thinking about engagement and I’m thinking about education. So that definitely informs my performance work.
P: Sure.
J: Um, and of course, those are things that I’m just passionate about. I’m passionate about community, and, and, I’m passionate about arts, the arts, and humanities as these incredible vehicles to help spec-, especially youth, especially, I’m in this work in education because I’m especially passionate about, um, the power of, of art and the humanities to help, um, or to, to connect with, um, you know, underrepresented youth, usually people of color. Um, who aren’t always offered these privileges.
(Break In Call)
Yeah, I think I was talking about my practice in general and how, um, the different aspects both as an, someone, you know, who makes art, who teaches art, and who, uh, who curates are. How all those different aspects have become part of one practice which all informs each other. And, and, yes I was talking about, um, the power of art and the humanities to, um, empower youth. Um, and in my case, I’m most passionate about using, you know, these, um, these, you know, both art and the humanities to, um, to help youth, you know, recognize how important they are, how powerful they are, how their cultural heritage is so important, how their voices are important, and, um, you know, how, you know, the, you know, what their cultural heritage is a, is a source of power and beauty.
P: Yeah
J: Not something that to assimilate or, um, you know, or to hide.
P: Yeah, something to, to highlight, you know? To show their uniqueness and value.
J: Yeah. Unfortunately we live in a country that doesn’t really embrace that. Or certainly, you know, part of the country doesn’t embrace that. And historically we know that, you know, um, the people that were originally in this country were, were forced to assimilate. And, you know, to become, you know, sort of have their cultures be whitewashed.
P: Mhm.
J: In a way that, um, you know, did a lot of damage.
P: Yeah. Yeah, to create more people to take part in the capitalist system, you know? It’s, um, it does cause a lot of damage and the damage is not gone.
J: Yeah, white supremacy capitalism…
P: Um, so do you think that being aware of those things a little bit more readily through being a museum educator or, being educator in general, has, has kind of brought you to more of a place of the performance art you’re making now, it’s a bit more direct?
J: Yeah, I think so. Well, you know the funny thing about performance art is that you never want to give everybody the whole enchilada, right? You don’t want to give everybody all the pieces to the puzzle.
P: Sure.
J: You want, you want, if you are, then you know, you should probably be in theatre. Or the performing arts.
P: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
J: And even, even then, not to criticize those amazing art forms, um, you know, performance art is, is meant to raise questions. It’s also meant to create discomfort.
P: Mhm.
J: And, um, and then you know the first thing that, I think that we, as performance artists, hope is that, is, is that people will first of all feel uncomfortable and that second of all that they’ll ask themselves “why am I feeling uncomfortable?”
P: Yeah.
J: You know, if they’re willing to go there then that’s when the real discovery and the artform is at it’s best. Um, so, you know, I don’t ever want to spell anything out, it’ll read too didactic. Um, and I think that yeah, that aligns well with kind of like some of the philosophies I’ve learned about, like art education, which is, you know, everyone is bringing their own experiences into the artwork. So there’s no way that I could communicate one idea the same way to everybody.
P: Sure.
J: And, and, and why would I want to? So, yeah, so I think that, that they do inform each other but, you know, even though they all inform each other, I, it’s very important for me to keep a certain, uh, separation between them. You know? It’s, it’s, I put on my, I put on my, you know, my museum professional Director of Learning and Engagement hat when I go to work. And it feels really good to take that hat off when I am designing my performances.
P: Yeah.
J: You know? So as much as they compliment each other and inform each other, they are still three different, very, very different things.
P: Sure. Sure. I think that’s good too. I mean, I feel like if you had been too closely tied you might feel restricted in your creative abilities, um, for your own work and then also might feel like you’re pushing the boundaries maybe too much with your, your, uh, institutional position.
J: Yeah! I mean I, my art, well, ultimately, when I’m making a performance I want to be edgy. I want it to be, I want it to push the boundaries, I want it to, I don’t, you know, I don’t want to be thinking about what the school district is going to think about it.
P: Yeah, exactly.
J: You know? Or even what my colleagues at the museum are going to think about it. Like it’s, it’s, it’s that time for me to be free completely.
P: Yeah, for sure.
J: And also. And also for aspects of myself to come out and be free. Because that’s what performance does for me. It allows for aspects of myself to find a stage, you know? Where society doesn’t always allow that or permit that or encourage that.
P: Yeah.
J: You know?
P: Yeah. And that’s, you know, you were speaking about being in, in several cities in Mexico and New York, um, I know you’ve lived in the Northwest, um, and I’m curious to know how your work is received there in Salt Lake City, uh, and, and if that creates any challenges or possibly creates resources for you that you wouldn’t have had if you lived in one of the other locations.
J: Hmm. That’s a good question.
P: Don’t say anything that’ll get you fired though. We’ll keep it, uh… I’m just kidding.
J: Well, I haven’t gotten fired already, I think I’m going to be ok with this interview. You know? I think you have to be true as an artist to your practice. And to your, and to your own ideas. And so, you know, Salt Lake City is not quite as conservative as a lot of people imagine it to be. Salt Lake City is a blue city in a red state. So we know, we want to be edgy. We want to be cool. We want to be queer. We want to be diverse. We want to be radical. You know? So, so, you know, I’m in a good place for that and certainly, um, I have more opportunities, um, to sort of, you know, shine in…
P: Yeah.
J: … In Salt Lake City than I do in the ocean that is New York City or that is Mexico City. So, um, so you know, I’m ok with that. Um, and so, you know, a lot of it is knowing your audience. And it’s, and it’s about knowing how far you can push. Knowing when to push and how to push. And so I try, I hope that my work is like I said earlier. I hope that it, hope that it challenges people. I want people when they experience my work to, um, to feel uncomfortable in a good way. I want them, I want them to feel, like I hope that my performance art makes people feel just anything really. Fuck, if, you know, my art can make someone feel anything that, that’s good.
P: Yeah
J: I’ve, I’ve succeeded.
P: That’s a success.
J: That, that my performance work is, is meant to bring people together. Around an idea. OK? So I’m a big believer in, in performances in the ability the performance has to bring people together in, in participation. And, um, in reciprocal environments and around some kind of an activist or protest or political statement. Um, and so, um, yeah. I think that yeah, um, I think I could be doing this in New York or in Bangladesh or in, you know, in, you know, in Turkey, wherever. I do believe this work can, can work on a universal level. But I’m really glad that, uh, that I have an opportunity to do it here in Salt Lake City and Salt Lake City is like I said. It’s actually a lot cooler than people realize unless they’ve been here. When they come here they, they learn that there’s this like really interesting underground culture here. That, um, that, you know, that is like freaky and weird and dark and interesting and beautiful and, and doing, you know, really important, um, experimental work. You know, we have this incredibly history of like in the performing arts of like dance culture and, and experimental music. There’s a lot things that people don’t realize about Utah that are actually really wonderful. But anyway, I don’t want to talk up Utah too much because, we like, we like to keep it like a well-kept secret.
P: Well, I mean like my first, like cultural introduction to Salt Lake City, of course, was SLC Punk, you know? So, um, if that’s like, any representation of the city then I really look forward to having a beer there with you in the near future.
J: Make it happen!
P: Well you, I’m going to go off into the weeds a little bit just because while you were talking you mentioned, um, you mentioned the ocean and you mentioned New York. You mentioned that I have done my research and I saw in an article, just those things reminded me of, you actually were, to help fund your time in New York when you were an artist there, you actually did fishing jobs like, in Alaska. Is that true?
J: Uh, that’s very true, yeah.
P: That’s one of the most badass things I think I’ve ever read about anybody to like, be able to fund their art practice in New York.
J: Well, it’s a badass industry with, you know, where people who are not so badass like myself and that are, well, maybe a little crazy like venture out to do. But yeah! I fished, uh, as a commercial fisherman in Alaska for four summers while I was living in New York City. And it was one of the most, um, meaningful and, uh, sort of life-affirming, uh, things I’ve ever done.
P: Yeah, I mean. Like I don’t even know anything about that world, you know? So it’s like a very, like when I hear that it’s so mysterious to me.
J: So, um, first of all. We’re talking about Alaska so it’s one of the most gorgeous, incredible, beautiful places in the world.
P: Yeah.
J: Um, and then we’re talking about the fishing industry which, uh, attracts some of the biggest misfits in the world. To come and, and, and, uh, you know, try to, try to strike it big and make some money and, uh, you know, do that. For me it was, it was really me trying to conquer my own fears.
P: OK.
J: Um, which is really been kind of a thing throughout my life. Like I went to New York just as much to conquer my own fears as it was to fulfill a fantasy.
P: Mhm.
J: Of what it might feel like to be, you know, to try to be making it as an artist in New York City. And going to Alaska, to become a fisherman, um, I had seen when I was in college at the University of Utah, I had seen some of my best friends go to Alaska, come back three months later with, um, kind of a different energy about them. They were like, more relaxed. They were just more chill. They were more confident. They had more money in their wallet. And, and, you know, they were, they’re just coming back and I was like “I want some of that.” And so it wasn’t until, it wasn’t until I was living in New York City and I was like dealing with the sweltering, you know, stinky summers in, in Manhattan and Brooklyn that I was like “This is probably a really good time for me to try that out.” So I went to Alaska and I started working out in a cannery. Basically cleaning fish.
P: Oh wow.
J: For endless hours. Um, you know, in the most monotonous, horrendous environments you could think of. Until I finally said, “Yeah, I’m going to go see, I’m going to go catch the fish instead of clean the fish.” And then I finally had the courage enough to go and walk the docks and get, you know, someone to like hire this young, Mexican punk to get on their boat and, and be their slave for the next three months. And um, because that’s kind of what it is. You kind of, you get on a boat and you kind of become certainly, especially when you’re first starting out you’re just you’re like you’re a deckhand. You’re, you’re doing the dirtiest kind of work, right? And so, but anyway, eventually, every summer I would get on a better boat and a bigger boat and I would make more money and we would catch bigger fish and we would… So I went from, you know, cleaning fish to eventually working in, in the Bering Sea.
P: Oh wow!
J: And fishing for crab where you’re out at sea for, you know, two months at a time.
P: Holy cow.
J: Uh, crab, you know, catching crab like you see on like the tv shows and such.
P: Uh-huh
J: And, uh, you know the, the greatest takeaway for that was it gave me an incredible appreciation for life. For my family. For my friends. Um, and I worked with some of the, some of the biggest assholes in the world. Um.
P: Yeah, I can imagine.
J: I also worked with some of the most beautiful people in the world.
P: Sure.
J: And so it built, it helped build character and a certain work ethic and, um, yeah! Every time I spent a summer in Alaska and I went back to New York, I was a better person because of it. So yeah! Yeah, it was, uh…
P: What a, I mean, that’s an incredible, like, polar life that you had for years, you know? Of like, New York, Alaska. Like, that’s a really, and it makes me, um, I guess it makes me wonder, you know, you’ve had such a diverse life. You’ve lived in these different places. You’ve had these different jobs. And I’m curious to know like, what do you feel like the value of communicating these concepts, these really tough topics we’ve been talking about, are through the arts. Like, what do you feel like the, um, what do you think that the arts bring to these topics that, of value, that help communicate them to people?
J: Wow. That’s a really big question.
P: It is. I didn’t email that one either. I’m sorry.
J: No!
P: I just pulled that…
J: I appreciate that. I just want to make sure that I’m being thoughtful when I answer it. Because I think it’s an important question. Um, I think it’s about love.
P: Mhm.
J: I think it’s about experiencing love in all of its different facets. And all of its different expressions. I mean, I kind of, I kind of, believe that, that the earth and this existence is sort of like the Disneyland of the gods in a place for people to come and forget that we’re like all gods and that we forget that, we make an agreement when we kind of cross the veil. We come into this existence and, and knowing that the only way to fully experience love is to forget that we are pure love. And so, so, you know, it’s kind of start over again. In a different, in a different environment. And, um, so fishing. Performing. Being in a punk band. You know, being an educator. Being a father. Being a husband or, you know, being, being a, being a waiter. You know I worked in a restaurant for like twenty years. So like all of that, I mean, like to me there’s no greater purpose in the work that I make, in the life that I lead, and in what I try to put out into the world than this idea of, of love. And, um, like what el-, you know, what else is there? What, of course there’s a lot of other things but to me they’re all sort of like expressions of the possibilities and the potential of love. So that’s the best way I can answer that question.
P: No, that’s really beautiful. I feel like I can’t ask anymore questions now. No, I think it’s, it’s really beautiful way to, to address it and I think, you know, it’s very true. That that’s, God, you know, it’s really I think we’re all missing right now, you know? As we’re, um, quaran-, quarantine life that we’re living is, you know, I was, I was just talking with my brother, you mentioned a waiter, you know, being a waiter and one of the things I really miss is going to a restaurant and being surrounded by, you know, maybe thirty people who are also extremely happy just to be alive and eating food, you know? And I, I, there’s something about that. That shared experience, um, through the performance that, that definitely does transmit a kind of love that’s difficult to, um, capture in maybe any other way. So, I think that’s, it’s beautiful and I’m curious, um, so, you talk about the work as being love and I’m going to follow it with a funny question. But, so when you make work, I don’t know how much, um, how much and what kind of feedback you receive. But I know that there’s always the possibility of criticism and I’m curious to know, um, when you receive that, be it constructive or negative, um, how do you sort of, how do you, like wade through and sort through that?
J: Criticism?
P: Yeah.
J: Dude, there’s not enough criticism. I would, I need criticism. I, you know, it’s like. I live, I live in a state where it’s, it’s full of Mormons and, and, and passive-aggressive people, you know? It’s like, like we do have some local good writers so, you know, I don’t want to like throw everybody down the train in Utah. But just in general though. I mean, I think, I think critical writing is, is, is sorely missing from the arts. I mean, like, I need someone that knows what they’re talking about. Um, to critique my work in a way that’s actually going to, like, make me consider that, you know, my own practice. I, you know, I think I would, I’ve, I’ve had very few people that have written, that have been truly critical of my work. And when, and when I, like when I come across them, um, I want to, I want to have a drink with them. I want to sit down with them and I want or, or I want to email them and I want to say and I want to thank them, first of all, for, for, challenging my ideas. Or for, or for recognizing that, that my, my work actually does not exist in some kind of silo. But it is actually part of a, a continuum. Right?
P: Yeah!
J: None of my ideas exist on their own. Right? I’ve inherited so much like knowledge and information and, and some stuff, some stuff that I’m not even like, consciously aware of that is informing my work and so I…
P: Sure.
J: We need more critics. We need more, I need, I need, I need more, I need more people to, to, to point out and say like, “Well, clearly Jorge was not aware of this artist” or “was not aware of this idea. Clearly he missed the mark.” Like if someone could do that for me, then, then that’s actually been, you know, that’s, that’s, that’s of value to me.
P: Yeah
J: It always, it always, criticism always stings. It never like, feels good at first but…
P: Sure.
J: But it’s not meant to. It’s, you know, it’s like, it’s like art, the arts will not progress without, um, real, smart people that are good writers. And that are able to contextualize work…
P: Mhm
J: …in a framework of, of, you know, of, of history. And I don’t mean like, just a Western history. I mean like a broad, like artistic history. So, um, you know, and, and, and the worst part about it is in living in Utah, um, you know, we’re, we’re in a desert. Like literally and conceptually, right? We’re not in New York and we’re not in LA.
P: Yeah, exactly.
J: We’re not, we’re not in Chicago. We’re not in, in Miami. So we’re pretty much don’t exist. And so, and, and, and that’s just in the United States, you know? And so, and so…
(Break In Call)
P: How has the pandemic impacted your art practice or your interests?
J: God, you know, I just, this is such a, that’s such a good question. Um, and I, as a, as a performance artist, um, it certainly has affected, um, you know, the opportunities of, you know, presenting my work in public. But, I just want to say, like, you know, how I give thanks everyday that I have a job with like, health insurance and, you know, like I don’t depend fully on my art, my performance art practice. And there’s a lot of people do and I want to send out love and light and, and support to those folks. Because those are, those are the folks that are doing like the deep, deep, deep, deep work. That are, that are like touring, that are like doing the blood, sweat, and tears. And, um, and that, you know, that are taking care of their families and taking care of themselves. And so, you know, whatever I say now, is like, it’s like, is almost insignificant compared to, to the performing artists of the world, um, who are doing theatre and dance and, um, you know, and experimental work on stage. Um, so, I feel really bad for those folks because those folks, um, some of them have, you know, three months ago they had two years of contracts.
P: Yeah. Yeah.
J: Um, that were going to sustain their practice and their lives. And then today they have nothing.
P: Yeah
J: So I just want to say like let’s support those people and let’s support those stages. Like the people that promote them and the people that are doing the work. Because that’s incredibly important. Um, but, but then I’ll just say that, you know, so I have been, I have not been affected like they have. But, um, my life has definitely been affected by the pandemic. And, you know, working from home and, you know, I have two kids at home that normally I drop off at school at 8 in the morning and pick up at 5:30. You know? Now they’re at home with me and…
P: Sure, yeah.
J: And they’re doing Zoom calls with their teachers and with their classmates. And they have canvas pages and they’re, you know, and so, you know, again, I live this very incredibly privileged life. Um, where I have a roof over their heads and my heads and I have health insurance and I have a job.
P: Sure.
J: But um, but um, it also has, you know, made me think about, continue to think about what the hell is going on in the world. And, um, I can talk specifically about my most recent performance.
P: OK.
J: Um that’s called “Dance for Our Departed”.
P: Mhm.
J: Um, it’s, uh, it was, it was inspired by me reading articles on social media that were making it very clear that people of color, um, in this country are getting sick and dying at disproportionate amounts.
P: Yes.
J: And so, um, anywhere you look whether you’re here in Utah or New York or in Texas, and, uh, certainly, um, in, um, in Navajo Nation and, um, you know, there’s just, you see it everywhere. And so, again, it’s the people of color, the brown and the black people and the Native people and certainly the Asian people who are being affected by this, for all, for all the like horrible racism, um, that’s being, um, you know, promoted by our fucked up president. So, uh, and his administration. So I decided, I actually, I read, I, you know, some article, I don’t even know where it came from, um, but there was an article that I came across that had, um, um, that talked about how all the powwows for Native Americans had been canceled. Of course they have, everything’s been canceled. Um, but so there were, there were Native American people, different parts of the country that were shooting kind of like these selfie videos…
P: Mhm.
J: So dressing up, sometimes in like full regalia, and sometimes in just whatever they had. And sometimes they were in their living rooms or sometimes they were in like their driveway. And sometimes they were, and they were like dancing.
P: Sure. I, yeah…
J: To the, their traditional dance. And that, that moved me more than anything that I have read. Uh, and I have, you know, I’ve, I’ve seen how, it, it, it made me think about like the power of dance. The power of the struggle and of people, um, doing whatever they had to do to maintain their culture and their traditions. And celebrating their ancestry. And I was just completely moved by that. And so I thought “Well, I have a little bit of experience with live, livestreaming.”
P: Mhm.
J: And connecting people through these, you know, technologies. And I sit in probably anywhere between five to ten Zoom calls a day. And I’m like “What if I use some of these technologies to connect people and brought, and helped them to create a stage where they could come together even though they are physically apart by obligation and could come and dance together to the, to the beat of a drum?” And think of the drum as the heartbeat of our Mother Earth and of our cultures. And so I, um, I reached out to my sister and her brother-in-law and they’re running a group called Remembering Our Culture.
P: Oh, OK.
J: it’s a group that’s celebrates, um, it’s basically a, it’s an aca-, it’s an academic group for people that are in college that…
P: Uh-huh.
J: That are interested in connecting to their, their cultural roots. And, uh, it’s an awesome group. They’ve been around for fifteen years. And, um, and I really reached out to my sister to just make sure that what I was thinking about was, you know, culturally sensitive and appropriate. And, you know, because, you know, I’m Mexican and, and, and I certainly love drums. I’m a drummer myself but I, I wanted to make sure that I was approaching this the right way. So I ran this by her and I said, her name is Lluvia, and I was like “Lluvia, what do,” you know, “what do you think of this idea?” Using livestreaming to connect people that are all over the country and perhaps even all over the world. To come together and dance. And, and I’m thinking about, like, tribal dance. I’m thinking about, like, you know, like, African and Pacific Islander and Native American and Asian and, and like, traditional, like Aztec dancing. And people that embrace these artforms to come together and dance together, um, for like ten minutes. Um, through livestream and…
P: Yeah
J: And, you know, there’s this organization called, uh, um, Ogden, Ogden Contemporary Arts that, that reached out to me
P: Oh yeah!
J: And asked me to do a, you know, they’re like “Jorge, we want to commission you to do an artwork.” And I was like, “OK! Well, here’s an opportunity.” So actually, you know, back to your original question. How has this pandemic affected me? It’s actually, I’m one of the lucky people that has actually, you know, had an opportunity to respond to it and had someone that was actually willing to pay me, um, to do this work. And so, um, so in talking to my sister, Lluvia said “You know, our, our whole season got shut down because of, of COVID-19. We were supposed to go to tour Costa Rica, to Puerto Rico, and to New York, and to California and none of that is going to be possible now.”
P: Yeah
J: She’s like “So, if you’re looking to bring, bring us, you know, bring people together, I would like to help you do that because it’ll be an opportunity for our community of dancers and performers to perform one more time. Even if we’re not together physically, we will be together in spirit. And, and we can do this.” And so, I was like, “OK! Let’s do this!” And, and luckily there was budget involved so that I could pay them. And so, um, so yeah. So I’m really proud of this work and I hope that you can include a link to it and, on, on the thing.
P: For sure!
J: Um, and it’s basically we, we brought together 37, 36 dancers and one drummer from as far as like Hawaii and down in Pachuca, Mexico.
P: Oh wow!
J: That came together through livestream and danced together to the rhythm of a drum and to some beautiful music that was created by, um, by a guy named DJ Krispy who’s, um, who just was the person I commissioned to make the audio for this that, um, that, um, they, you know, it, it was this one moment in time where people in different parts of the world and across the country came together and danced. And it was, it was a dance of protest.
P: Mhm.
J: It was a way of telling the government there is inequity, there is, you know, like, basically shining a li-, pointing a light at like all of this inequity that has been existing forever. Um, but at the same time, saying we will not be erased. We will not be disappeared. We will not be whitewashed. We will come together across cultures. And we will dance. For hope. For healing. For our ancestors. And for our people. And for ourselves. And it, I’m so proud of this work. Um, again, this work would have never come together if it’d not been for the, for the pandemic. So yeah, I, you know, think that’s, I think that’s what artists do, right? We, we respond to the times.
P: Yeah. No, I think that’s one of the really incredible silver linings of all of this is it’s challenging us to figure out how to we continue to connect, um, as humans. You know, that’s one of the things artists do so well. Is, like, how, how do we, how we as artists and in the arts connect in spite of, you know, what’s happening. Um, and that’s something that has been, has been pushed for a long time through, you know… You know, when you first brought up this project I was thinking about it through NPN , the National Performance Network, but I think maybe it was something that the Ogden had published. Um, and I just, I think it’s, it’s a really amazing project that you’ve put together. It’s like a gathering of the nations only internationally digitally. You know? At a time when, you know, when do we need a beautiful view of humanity more than right now?
J: Yeah and, you know, yes. And thank you, um, for asking about this because it’s, it’s, I think it’s a really important project. And a very timely and relevant project. And, you know, something that I, that, that, that I love about it is that these projects, they never come together with just like “Oh, this is how we’re going to do it.” It’s, it becomes a community project.
P: Mhm!
J: A project ended up being nothing about me. That, that being everything about these, these members of this group that wanted to come together and dance.
P: Yeah.
J: And that’s what I love. What, that’s, like, I think that’s the best, the best thing that can I do is create, uh, a space for people to come together around an idea. Um, and it’s funny, you know, and I was like, when I was talking to, uh, Christian, also goes by DJ Krispy, about the, the, the sound design, I was like “You know, I, I want this to be tribal. I want it to be like the heartbeat.” You know?
*imitates drum beat sounds*
P: Mhm.
J: You know, like, I want it to be like, like, almost like people are going, like, to war. Or hunting.
P: Yeah.
J: But also I need it to be solemn and respectful. And most, I want it to be mournful. I want it us, you know, I want the dancers to feel like they’re mourning their ancestors and the people that, that, that we’ve lost, uh, to COVID-19.
P: Sure.
J: And so, we, he sent me like the original like ideas on audio that was like these elements of kind of like house music. You know? And there was like…
*imitates house music*
You know? I was like, “OK!” I was like, “Alright, this is, this is not just tribal but there’s like some house beats going on, right? Like tell me about that.”
P: Yeah.
J: And, and then he and my, my sister, who, you know, this is what they do. This is, they’ve dedicated fifteen years of their life to. They’re like “Bro, uh, you know, Native folks aren’t only dancing, aren’t only listening to like traditional flute music and the drum.” You know?
P: Yeah.
J: Traditional drumbeat is like. You know, the music has evolved. And, and, you know, Native folks are getting down to some like serious house beats. And I was like…
P: There’s some great, there’s some great hiphop artists out there too now.
J: Yeah man! So, you know, I was, I was working with like Tribe Called Red. I mean I used A Tribe Called Red’s music. There’s this woman named Sila and Tanya Tagaq doing like crazy like amazing contemporary Native music. Um, I mean like, like, I think A Tribe Called Red is working with like Saul Williams and with Mos Def and anyway. Um, I was, I was schooled and, and in this experience and so when you hear the music, you’ll, you’ll hear that, yeah, there’s, there’s definitely some, some, uh, elements of house music and, uh, techno. And like taking, and by the way, all of that music has borrowed from tribal music so, you know, it’s about, it’s about time that, you know.
P: Yeah
J: That there, that there is some reciprocity there.
P: It’s getting back to the roots for sure.
J: Yeah.
P: And that, you said that this is a project that’s coming from the Ogden, correct?
J: So, so, it’s called, they’re, uh, it’s called, uh, Ogden Contemporary Arts. And, um, they, you know, they’re, they’re, right now they’re actually kind of evolving but it, it was called, um, O1 Arts. So…
P: OK
J: So, but, um, anyway, they, they reached out to me and they said “Jorge, we know, you know, we know about your work,” um “we, we’re looking for artists that will respond to the current, um, challenges and limitations and, we, we’re wondering if, if you would be interested in doing something. And by the way you have three weeks to pull it together.”
P: Yeah
J: And I was like “Alright!” You know? And it’s like, you know, like that’s what artists thrive on, you know? It’s like an opportunity. It’s like, you know, opportunity is truly the mother of invention and so I, I, uh…
P: And deadlines!
J: And what?
P: And deadlines!
J: And deadlines! And, you know, sometimes debts! Paying off debts! And so, so I, uh, so I, I told, um, Vanessa, who, who, who runs the show over there, who’s amazing, I said, “Vanessa, give me, let me think about it over the weekend.” And then, and then it took me like three days to come up with a concept. Pitched it to her. Um, she, she said, “Let’s do it!” And, and I said I need to pay artists. And I need to pay musicians. And I need to pay editors. And, and, and she said, “I understand that because I’m also an artist.”
P: Yeah.
J: And, um, and so, you know, it was a real refreshing environment to work in. To work with someone that understands that people need to get paid.
P: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think artists that are also arts administrators are incredibly valuable in making sure that arts culture is formed in an equitable way. And I have to give a huge thank you to you for all that you do in that. Um, and then also during this time period because, you know, you, here you are making this project that is beautiful and impactful and international. But you’re also working for one of the greatest arts institutions in Utah. You know? Maybe in like the western states there. And, um, and I think it’s, I just want to give a shoutout to this because I know people are thinking “Oh, museums are closed. I bet the administrators are like, having to work half the time.” But I think the administrators that I’m talking to are working double time. There’s so much more going on behind the scenes now as far as how do we, how do you take care of the missed income? How do you damage control canceled events? How do you set up for an unknown future? How do you write grants to try to, like, fund that unknown future? So, I just thank you for doing all that you’re doing in those_____
J: Oh man, thank you, Peter. And, and it’s true. Museum, museum workers are working double time right now. Um, we’re, we have the original work we were doing and now we’re like digitizing a lot of work and trying to make it accessible. We’re also trying to serve our community. People in our communities that don’t have internet readily available to them. People that don’t have parents that can just stay home with them, you know, and, and, and e-school them. And, you know, we, we’re really, there’s a lot of us that are really trying to do the right thing. I also want to take this opportunity and give a shoutout to the National Performance Network that both you and I belong to. And that, uh, inspires not only the work that I do but how I do the work that I do. Because National Performance Network is one of the like premier, uh, organizations that is pushing the, that’s trying to really change the systems, um, of how our artists are treated, art-, and how artists are paid, and also how the people that are presenting these artists are treated and how they’re paid. And so, yeah, shoutout to NPN.
P: No, for sure. I think that’s, that’s incredible. They’ve been doing this work since before it was cool, you know? And, um, they, they’ve definitely had a huge impact on the work that I make and curated and, um, I get to know you through it as well.
J: That’s right.
P: Um, are, do you, are you still, um, are you on the board of that, of that organization? Or was that something that was in the past?
J: Um, full disclosure, I am on the board of directors of National Performance Network.
P: OK
J: We didn’t, you know, says a lot about the organization that they would take on as struggling artist person living in Utah, um, but they, NPN has always valued having artists voices on their board. So much so that they fundraise and write grants so that they can actually pay for, you know, um, you know, poor people like myself to fly to New Orleans three times a year and to fly around the country to do conferences and meetings.
P: Yep.
J: So, um, NPN goes way out of their way to make sure that they can, uh, bring artists’ voices to the table. To help develop, uh, the mission, visions, strategic plans, and all of that business.
P: Yes. Thank you, NPN…
J: Yeah!
P: …So much. Um, well I don’t want to take up too much of your time up now.
J: You mean more than the last three hours?
P: Yeah! Plus the breaks in our call.
J: Oh, I guess it’s only been two hours. Good luck editing this.
P: Yeah. Um, it’ll be its own challenge for sure. I enjoy it though. Um, well, I want to ask you some really quick questions about, like, people are, are looking for things to do while they’re quarantined and we still don’t exactly know how much longer this is going to go on at this level. So I, I wanted to ask you for a few, uh, maybe entertainment or arts suggestions.
J: Oh boy. OK.
P: So, um, what is your favorite, like, musical album?
J: Damn. Um. Dude I listen to so much music and I love putting playlists together. I, it’s an impossible question.
P: Well, what about something from the most recent…
J: Yeah, I’ve been, I’ve been grooving on Sault. Have you heard of Sault?
P: I haven’t. No.
J: S-A-U-L-T. Um, they have two albums that came out last year. They came out with two albums. One is called Sault Number 5 and one is called Sault Number 7. It’s fire, man. It’s so good. It’s just like funk, soul, but house beats. It sounds old but it sounds new. It’s, it’s, it’s rad. I’ve also been listening to, uh, Portico Quartet.
P: OK
J: And been listening to, uh, and like I already said, you know, like A Tribe Called Red and, um.
P: Yeah.
J: Yeah. Um, those are the ones that come to mind right now.
P: Excellent. And what about a favorite movie?
J: Oh God. Um, I haven’t been watching a lot of movies lately. Um, favorite movie? God.
P: I can’t imagine…
J: Oh and by the way, another artist is Aldo-, Aldous Harding. A-L-D-O-U-S Harding. I, I love her voice. I think she’s from like New Zealand or something. Anyway, um, yeah I don’t, I don’t have a favorite movie, sorry.
P: That’s ok! We’ll, we’ll replace the movie with, uh, with that last album.
J: OK.
P: And what about a good book?
J: OK that I can help you with. Um, I’ve, here are the books that I’m reading. Um, um, a friend gave me, um, the, the, the Prince diaries. Prince the musician, the artist.
P: Oh, that’s cool.
J: It’s called Prince, the Beautiful Ones. That’s a really beautiful look into the mind of Prince.
P: Interesting.
J: Who I just adore. Um, and my mom recently gave me, um, The Water Dancer by Ta-Nehisi Coates.
P: Uh-huh. Yeah.
J: Super important book. And, um, and then my friend, uh, that, um, Eric Treanor, who lives in the Bay Area. He gave me Learning to Die in The Anthropocene. Anthropocene? Is that how you say it? Anthropocene? You know…
P: Yeah, that’s how I say it.
J: OK.
P: Anthropocene, yep. Our new geological area, era based upon…
J: Yeah.
P: Human influence.
J: So it’s called Learning to Die in The Anthropocene. That word just always sounds weird when I say it. Like I feel like I’m always saying it wrong. But, uh, it’s called Reflections on the End of a Civilization. Um…
P: OK
J: So, yeah, I think that those are all books that I’m deeply, um, engaged with right now.
P: Those sound like three books that would be very helpful in keeping yourself going through all this craziness.
J: Yeah and there’s one more. And this is really beautiful book if you like magical realism. Uh, it’s by a wonderful author name Yuri Herrera. Um, and it’s called, um, Signs Preceding the End of the World.
P: OK
J: So there you have it. Those are my recommendations.
P: That’s excellent.
J: If you read those, then you will be a better human being.
P: That’s what we can hope for all of us after this I think.
J: Yeah, listen to that music too.
P: So, um, do you, it’s a weird time, I know, for the pandemic and for arts folks, do you have any idea of when your next performance or function will be?
J: Well, I have an idea. Nothing is certain these days, right?
P: I know.
J: So I hope this is not premature for me to announce this but, um, there’s a, um, really amazing, um, biennial that is, was just born this year in, in New York City. It’s called The Immigrant Biennial. And…
P: OK
J: …it is, uh, basically a biennial that I hope continues on for many years but this is the first iteration of it. And it was started, uh, by this really interesting, uh, artist, uh, and curator named Katya. And…
P: OK
J: …what is Katya’s last name? Um, I’ll think of it here in a minute. But anyway, Katya raised the funds and got the grants to start a biennial that focuses specifically on, uh, artists that are immigrants in this country. And they’re…
P: OK.
J: I got the great news just a couple weeks ago that my submission had been accepted.
P: Congratulations!
J: Thank you! Thank you! I’m super psyched because this means that I’ll be, um, sometime between September and December, I’ll be going to New York, uh, to perform as part of the, um, as part of this, this, uh, immigrant biennial. So that’s, that’s my next project.
P: Very cool.
J: I’m in the process of communicating with the, they have a whole curatorial team. Um, you can look it up. It’s The Immigrant Biennial and you’ll see, uh, that many of the artists have already been selected. And, um, and then eventually I will show up on that roster as well. So yeah I hope, like I said, they did send me the, the email officially welcoming me into the, into the biennial so I don’t think it’s premature for me to announce it here.
P: No, I’m really grateful to know about it, know a little more about it.
J: Please check it out! It’s rad.
P: Yeah! For sure. And, um, I have one last question for you and then I’ll let you go.
J: OK
P: And, um, that is what would be some really great advice for a young artist that’s just getting started in their professional artistic practice? Or, maybe what is a really great piece of advice that you wish you when you were starting out?
J: Oh, you don’t make this easy, man. Um, oh gosh. Um, you know, I was actually thinking about something like this recently because someone that I work with, colleague that I work with, who’s like a young college student who works at the museum, Utah Museum of Fine Arts. She, she asked something similar to this and, I, I think my answer, um, was something like, um, stick with what you’re passionate about. Like, like stick to your passion. Um, develop a love for service. And for contributing to your community. Um, what else did I say? Learn to be critical of institutions. And by institutions, I mean all institutions.
P: Mhm.
J: But critical, being critical is not enough. Like it’s our job as, as artists to come up with some solutions and some ideas.
P: Yeah.
J: And ways to like actually change the thing. Um, do what you have to do to pay the bills. There’s no, there’s no shame in that. Um, and do whatever brings you joy.
P: Excellent. I think, I think that’s really beautiful advice. How many artists can pay their bills just by art practice when they start, you know? How many can pay for their art practice just with their art practice when they’re, you know, getting older in their art practice?
J: Yeah! Yeah! It doesn’t matter. What matters is that you figure out a way to continue making your art. Doesn’t matter if you can make a living off your art. That doesn’t, that doesn’t, that doesn’t make you a better artist.
P: No, it doesn’t. It really doesn’t. Well, Jorge, I don’t want to take anymore of your time. I really, really have enjoyed talking with you. But, um, is there anything else that you wanted to add before we say our goodbyes?
J: No, man. Just thanks for, thanks for reaching out. And for the opportunity and for, and for, um, sharing, you know, our stories and our ideas with the public. Um, it’s really important what you’re doing. And, um, I wish you all the best. And, um, please give my love to your family.
P: For sure. Thank you and thank you for sharing with us. And there’s a lot of great articles about you in the world. Um, but I really, I really value this, the, the work coming from you. I think it’s incredibly invaluable, um, as a cultural, uh, relic. And I appreciate your time. Stay sane. Stay healthy. And I, I look forward to that beer sometime in person.
J: Well it might be a mezcal but yeah. We’ll, we’ll make something happen.
P: I’m, I’m ok with mezcales.
J: Thanks for this opportunity. It’s been nice talking with you.
P: Thank you too. Have a good great evening.
J: Peace.
P: It was a blast to digitally hang out with Jorge Rojas in this episode. For more info on Jorge and his work, we have a list of references along with the transcript of this interview on our website.
References:
- University of Utah: https://www.utah.edu/
- “El Nigromante” San Miguel de Allende: https://inba.gob.mx/recinto/44
- Museo del Barrio: https://www.elmuseo.org/
- Queens Museum of Art: https://queensmuseum.org/
- New World Museum: https://houston.culturemap.com/guide/entertainment/new-world-museum/
- Project Row Houses: https://projectrowhouses.org/
- Ex Convento del Carmen: https://sc.jalisco.gob.mx/patrimonio/casas-de-la-cultura/ex-convento-del-carmen
- FOFA Gallery: https://www.concordia.ca/finearts/facilities/fofa-gallery.html
- Utah Museum of Fine Art: https://umfa.utah.edu/
- Utah Museum of Contemporary Art: https://www.utahmoca.org/
- My Space: https://vimeo.com/showcase/1555384/video/12682684
- Vermont Studio Center: https://vermontstudiocenter.org/
- New Aesthetic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Aesthetic
- Low Lives: https://vimeo.com/showcase/1555384/video/12682684
- Five Myles: http://fivemyles.org/
- Diaspora Vibe Gallery: http://dvcai.org/
- Ex Convento del Carmen: https://sc.jalisco.gob.mx/patrimonio/casas-de-la-cultura/ex-convento-del-carmen
- Glue: https://vimeo.com/showcase/1555384/video/18303433
- Tortilla Oracle: https://hemisphericinstitute.org/es/enc14-performances/item/2331-enc14-performances-rojas-oracle.html
- Dance for Our Departed: https://vimeo.com/showcase/1555384/video/419422750
- Hands Up, Don’t Shoot!: https://vimeo.com/showcase/1555384/video/210124407
- Utah Public Library: https://services.slcpl.org/
- Performance Art Festival: https://www.facebook.com/events/447068289135952/
- SLC Punk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLC_Punk! Full Film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF2HUoS-Nx0
- Navajo Nation: https://www.navajo-nsn.gov/
- Remembering Our Culture: https://www.facebook.com/roctheplanet/
- Ogden Contemporary Arts: https://ogdenfirst.org/
- NPN , the National Performance Network: https://npnweb.org/
- DJ Krispy: https://www.instagram.com/djchrisevents/
- Tribe Called Red: https://www.youtube.com/user/aTribeCalledRed
- Sila: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRDrSFPvdN0
- Tanya Tagaq: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNYTA6SV6tM
- Saul Williams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Williams
- Mos Def: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mos_Def
- O1 Arts: https://ogdenfirst.org/
- Sault: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdHH4-6q000&list=RDEMCwTXjY8zpkzRci8Lvz1fQg&start_radio=1
- Number 5: https://saultglobal.bandcamp.com/album/5
- Number 7: https://saultglobal.bandcamp.com/album/7
- Portico Quartet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQH0GPL33uc&list=RDEM8HKzkIVuBSNti9BgHXABwA&start_radio=1
- Aldous Harding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyZeJr5ppm8&list=RDEMYIssnudI6Vt7zk_shRYGEw&start_radio=1
- Prince, the Beautiful Ones: https://www.npr.org/2019/10/27/771446639/prince-memoir-the-beautiful-ones-brings-to-life-a-vision-in-one-s-mind
- The Water Dancer: https://www.amazon.com.mx/Water-Dancer-Oprahs-Book-Club/dp/0593168194
- Ta-Nehisi Coates: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta-Nehisi_Coates
- Learning to Die in The Anthropocene: https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/learning-how-to-die-in-the-anthropocene/
- Anthropocene: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropocene
- Reflections on the End of a Civilization: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25330145-learning-to-die-in-the-anthropocene
- Yuri Herrera: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Herrera
- Signs Preceding the End of the World: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/apr/22/signs-preceding-the-end-of-the-world-yuri-herrera-review-mexican-migrants
- The Immigrant Biennial: https://www.theimmigrantartistbiennial.com/about
- Katya: https://www.katyagrokhovsky.net/the-immigrant-artist-biennial