Episode 2.10
Interview with Gregg Deal, by Peter Hay on Apr. 22nd, 2021
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Peter (P): Hey, good morning, Gregg.
Gregg (G): Morning, Peter, how are you?
P: Good, good. Can you hear me okay?
G: Yeah, I can hear you.
P: Great.
G: I don’t know if you could see my icon. I actually just started a podcast and that’s what that means, From the Outside. It’s a Black, Indigenous, People of Color, like in the outdoor industry, and just kind of talking about the inequity of that stuff. So that’s what that is.
P: Oh, that’s super cool. I’m actually a huge outdoors man. So, well, the other half of me.
G: We’re cycling nerds. Um, so my friend, Adam, uh, we, when I lived in DC for almost 17 years and he was, out there too, and we connected cause he won a contest that put him on the Discovery Channel riding a section of the Tour de France and getting outfitted with a cycling setup. And anyways, that’s how we met. And we had a podcast in the early two thousands, which was one of the most popular cycling podcasts. And then after Black Lives Matter and everything that happened… Uh, we, we stopped because when the recession hit. I was spread way too thin trying to just survive. And um, but after last year Black Lives Matter and everything, he was like, I was like, we should maybe start again, but maybe cast our net farther to being outdoors and not just cycling. And he was all for it. So we started it.
P: That’s really cool, um, that, I had no idea. That’s like, a whole side of you I did not know. I mean, I’ve been reading and researching and trying to get ready for the interview, but I didn’t know the cycling aspect. That’s cool.
G: Yeah, Yeah. That’s one of the things that like, I’ve been noticing a lot of other Native artists in particular doing the same thing, where it’s like, your identity almost has to be, you know, singular and, um, and then a lot of people who are into cycling and stuff, it’s like, they have often felt – I felt this in the past because they used to race and stuff that – you had to almost abandoned your identity to participate and in, like within cycling culture. So one of the things that I’ve been pushing is this idea that I can be an artist, and I can be into punk rock, and I can be a cyclist and I can be a dad, and I can be an activist. Like it can be all those things.
P: You’re a Human. Yeah. Full, you’re a, like it’s all part of it. Yeah. No, that’s good. It’s freeing. I hope.
G: Yeah. Yeah. It is. Um, especially because I’ve been actually like just on my Instagram feed and stuff, I’ve been putting those things in there and starting to spread that around. But, um, I just got a sponsorship with Cannondale and so they’re helping me out on a bunch of projects that are sort of intersecting art and stories and personal and cycling and like all this different stuff.
P: That’s so cool. That’s awesome. Congratulations on that.
G: Yeah. Thanks.
P: Yeah. Change, changed the face of that for sure.
G: Like, yeah, I mean, and that’s a big part of it too, is just like the conversation I’ve been having with them and with a couple of other companies is that, uh, the cycling sort of industry, whether it’s mountain bike or road bikes or gravel or whatever, is just like, it’s very white. And, uh, and it’s also this sort of lifestyle obsession. Like you have to be rich and like 150 pounds wet, CIS white male. And, uh, and the thing is, is it like, there’s just a myriad of people doing a myriad of different things that all come into it. So I have a bike frame that’s being built by a bike builder and they’re actually like incorporating some of my work into the designs on the frame. So it’s like super, super cool, like intersection of stuff. So…
P: Oh man, that’s exciting. That’s really exciting. So I, I just, um, I, I realize that you grew up in, in Utah and like the outdoors and cycling and trail running and backpacking and all of those things. They’re just like a huge part of the culture here.
G: Yeah. Well that, and like white supremacy, but yeah, that, yeah, well,
P: I haven’t lived here very long, so I mean, and it’s a pandemic, so I feel like I don’t really know Utah yet.
G: Yeah. It’s, it’s, uh, you know, there’s a reason why I live in Colorado and not in Utah. Cause I lived in DC for almost 17 years, uh, where my wife is from. And um, when we were going to move back West, both of us were just like, you don’t want to go back to Utah and I didn’t want to raise my kids in Utah either. Um, ‘cause the culture is difficult, so it was beautiful. And if you can disconnect yourself, that’s fine. But, um, but I am, uh, LDS and Mormon and uh, an active and all that. So like I am aware of some of the cultural, I don’t know, weirdness in Utah and I just, it’s not really what I wanted for my, for my kids. Cause I grew up there and it was not an easy place to grow up.
P: Interesting. Yeah. But you grew up in a smaller town, right? I mean…
G: Mean, yes, and no. I grew up in Park City, which is a small town that acts like a pretty big town.
P: Well, yeah, like the income disparity between the working class and the people that go there to play is like astronomical. So yeah.
G: Yeah. It’s huge. And so my mom grew up in Salt Lake City. She actually grew up in Holladay and um, and so she used to, when she was a kid she’d ditch out school and then go skiing, uh, with her friends and stuff. And so I think in my mom’s mind us living in Park City, I don’t know if she would admit this and I’m probably upset her by saying this out loud, but, um, I think it was, I think it’s a sort of a status thing, you know, it just appearances, um, because my parents were just a solid, like working class. My father was a mechanic, she drove a bus and sometimes worked as like a, uh, you know, front desk secretary for a chiropractor. Um, we made just enough money for us to be broke around rich white people. And so, you know, just, yeah, it was a strange sort of place to be. Um, but it also on top of that is a small town. So like there was one black kid, I knew one Jewish girl, um, you know, almost everybody was Mormon. Uh, there was a couple of, you know, non-denominationals, that, that’s how I grew up. My father was like a preacher growing up. Uh, okay. So it was, it was, it was not diverse at all. I mean our graduating class was about a hundred kids and um, and it was tough. It was a tough place to grow up.
P: You were the diversity.
G: Yeah, me and my sister and, uh, there’s a couple of Mexicans, uh, in there as well, but if it was like English as a second language, they completely segregated them from the rest of the school. Um…
P: Interesting…
G: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s, it’s kind of twisted. Um, it was not diverse at all. Um, and, and any sort of diversity that was there because clearly Utah is sort of, um, it’s a straight line from Mexico up to Utah and um, if you want to get out of, you know, Arizona, New Mexico, like you can head up to Utah or Colorado and, uh, and you can find a little bit, um, a little bit more reprise, I think away from the harsh stereotypes of, um, of States that are near the border and have people coming across the border for, for any reason at all. And so I’ve found, uh, Utah to be really segregated, um, that there were a lot of Mexicans, uh, up in Park City, especially cause they’re working, um, mostly, uh, in like the service industry and in the restaurant industry, those are the places that like have them the most. And we grew up in these like fixed income or like low-income apartments. And it was basically like a couple of families, which was, which was what we were and, uh, and some, uh, Mexicans that were living up in that way as well, that were coming from all different walks of life. Um, and ski bums that would just come through, like during the ski season. And, um, and then, uh, it was, and we were actually right next to the high school. There’s an apartment complex right next to the high school and that’s where I grew up.
P: Our guest for this episode is Gregg Deal. He is of the Pyramid Lake Paiute Tribe, is a contemporary artist who challenges Western perceptions of Indigenous people, touching on issues of race, history, and stereotypes. He was Native Arts Artist-in-Residence at Denver Art Museum in 2015-2016 and Artist-In-Residence at UC Berkeley 2017-2018. Gregg has lectured widely at prominent educational institutions and museums, including Denver Art Museum, Dartmouth College, Columbia University, and the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian. His television appearances include PBS’s The Art District, The Daily Show, and Totally Biased with W. Kamau Bell.
P: Well, thank you Gregg, for joining us today. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast.
G: Yeah, thanks for having me.
P: Yeah. Um, so I just read a short bio and we actually kicked off this interview, uh, pretty quickly and started jumping into all sorts of things about, um, Utah and your background in the outdoors and your new podcast. But I’m wondering if there’s anything you’d like to say about who you are?
G: Uh, well, um, I am, uh, I always like to kind of say that, you know, like I’m a husband and a father and a member of my, uh, tribal community, the Pyramid Lake Paiute Tribe. I’m an artist and a disruptor. Um, activism seems to come into my work as, uh, you know, as, as part of that identity, I think. So, um, yeah. I’m all those things.
P: Good. Good. And, um, we talked a little bit too about where you’re from and our, our, uh, we jumped off in the podcast pretty quickly, but, uh, is there anything else you’d like to add about where you’re from?
G: Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, I’m, I didn’t grow up, uh, on, uh, you know, my reservation, but, um, but it, you know, nevertheless, I’m, I’m a member of that community that’s in Nevada, um, uh, just a few miles outside of Reno. Um, and, uh, my mom was born there and of course I still have family that’s there. Um, and I’ll actually be going out there this year.
P: Oh, great.
G: For some, for some cool stuff, but, um, but I, I claim Utah’s my home. I mean, I was born in Tennessee where my father’s from. Uh, but, um, I grew up in Utah and, uh, had been there, had been there since I was five years old. And so I consider it home, but, um, I don’t know. I’m also sort of sometimes feel like a man without a home. So I just have moved around so much that, um, you know, Utah’s my home state, but you know, now I’m in Colorado and yeah, it’s, it’s just as good.
P: Yeah. And you, you lived in DC and in the meantime there too. Yeah.
G: Yeah. 17, almost 17 years there. My wife grew up there and, um, and I feel like that’s, I mean, that’s where I went to school and then that’s where I sort of made my bones as an artist before we decided to move back West.
P: Okay. I see, um, this, like, this brings up a ton of questions for me, but I think, uh, one that’s really interesting is that you mentioned that you didn’t grow up, um, on the, the Pyramid Lake Paiute Reservation area. And something we talked about earlier is that, you know, you grew up as like one of the only people of color in your, um, in your school, in your neighborhood. And I’m curious a little bit about the process of you around like the discovery of who you are. And I know that now you’re very, like, very knowledgeable about the history of colonization of the United States. And I’m, I guess I’m just curious a little bit about your, um, uh, your educational path with that.
G: Yeah. Um, you know, it’s, if I can take it back to like my mom, uh, you know, like that generation of Natives were either very proud, um, or sort of in hiding. Uh, and, and so my mom, uh, she was adopted and was raised, uh, by a white family and Halladay, uh, which at the time was, you know, uh, really well to do sort of area or a suburb of Salt Lake City. And, um, it was also in the middle of the Indian placement program, which is something that the LDS Church had put together to bring Native kids from the Reservation, place them into homes in, uh, Utah and surrounding areas, um, for their community. Cause I’m pretty sure that placement program was happening in like Idaho and Arizona and Colorado, some other places besides just Utah. But, um, she grew up during that time. And so her family was there. She was a permanent resident, but she, I know she was always treated like she was a temporary resident because of that Indian placement program and the perception of native sort of being in the area at that time. And, um, and so I think she grew up really resenting a lot of those things that just wanting to, to, to blend in. And, um, she used to tell me these stories about, um, how she, how much she hated her nose. Like my mom’s full blood. So she’s got like a good Indian nose and, you know, so she just these little things that would pop up that where she was clearly growing up, you know, in a white neighborhood and was, uh, striving to just simply blend in with everybody else. So growing up, I didn’t learn anything from my mom and I had to figure it out. And then of course, you know, I’m a child of the eighties and the nineties. And so I grew up with like hip-hop and then, you know, things like Spike Lee movies and, um, and Public Enemy. And like all these things sort of began to sort of inform what I was, what I was feeling, what I was looking at, because these are the first people of color that I’m seeing, you know, in, uh, in, uh, the popular sphere of, um, music and representation. And, um, that led me to the autobiography of Malcolm X, which is the first book that I read from cover to cover in high school, uh, which led me to learn about a myriad of different things and learning about American Indian Movement. Um, learning about things like the, um, uh, Wounded Knee Standoff in the seventies, um, the Pine Ridge Reservation, and really begin to ask myself a lot of questions and align myself with ideas that made sense to me, and ultimately kind of validated me in a way that, um, that I felt less alone as a kid. Because up to that point, I was treated a certain way. I was treated like a Native kid, but didn’t have the information to sort of validate like why this is happening and where this comes from and having something to be proud of. And so I really had to work through that and figure that out. And I began to align myself with some people that help inform a lot of things. And all of this is like, meanwhile, we’re, we’re, you know, not connected to our community. And, um, my effort to connect us to our community, uh, was one that I put an enormous amount of time into and was eventually able to do that. Um, in 1978, there was, uh, this, this Congressional Act called, um, the Indian Child Welfare Act. Um, and that was meant to eliminate, uh, closed adoptions of Indigenous children to non-indigenous homes, particularly white homes, because what it was doing is it was separating these kids from their cultural rights and privileges. And so the Indian child welfare act was created to make sure that that didn’t happen because under, uh, under the UN, uh, that act of taking a child from a marginalized or minority group and placing them into a majority situation, like a family situation is defined as an act of genocide. And so, uh, the United States did that. Well, my mom was born before that, so she was, she was in a closed adoption and, um, I knew where she was from. And I like, there was only a couple of tribes within that region. So we’re pretty sure we knew what the situation was, but we were having a hard time getting the information. And so I found out the adoption agency, she went to, and I called them for like a decade and a half to like, like several times a year for a decade and a half. I just called them on the regular. And one day, um, the woman that was running the, that I was in contact with regularly, she, uh, was like, Hey, I have some information to give you. I’m really glad you called. And I got all the information and I was able to tell my mom, her birth name, the name of her birth mother and her birth father. And, um, at the time I was really good friends with the chairman of the Pyramid Lake Paiute Tribe. Um, uh, a man that I have come to really love and appreciate who, who just passed last year. And he, but he, the Tribal Chairman and I called them up as like, as like “Norm, you’re not going to believe this.” And I told them that we’re from there. And then we had Norm, I found out we were related on top of that. And so there’s all these sort of serendipitous things that sort of happened, um, that allowed us to sort of connect. And the journey that I was on up to that point was incredibly weird and just interesting and frustrating and beautiful. And, and it was all of those things for my entire life. I’ve been treated like a, like a Native person, good, bad or indifferent, and, um, to be able to sort of reconnect and have those definitions and to find my family and for my mom to be able to meet her siblings that she’s never met, you know, all these things just turned out to be an incredible part of the journey, but also gives me, uh, an enormous amount of compassion for people that are in the Americas that suffer similar situations, where there is a disconnect that removes them from the rights and privileges of their Indigenous identity. And so it’s, it’s ‘cause it’s an incredible thing that has happened, uh, not, not in a good way and, uh, and has stifled entire communities and, and lends itself to economic issues and to, uh, mental health issues. I mean, can’t even imagine not being able to have that connection in those ways, but look still looking the part and the sort of mental health toll that that takes. Um, and so that’s, those are all things that I’ve, I’ve have come to have some enormous compassion for because, uh, colonization is just a hell of a thing.
P: Well, and you have a thing that’s like, that seems to be a point I just want to highlight in all of that is like, um, it’s something that I feel like a lot of people who maybe aren’t familiar with this history would say, oh, well that happened, oh, that happened so long ago, you know, and like 1978 wasn’t that long ago.
G: It’s in my lifetime.
P: Exactly. And, and not only that, but like that, you know, we’ve learned so much about trauma and how trauma is passed between generations without even, um, uh, without even having the direct linkage to the trauma. Of course. And this is, we are so close to these things. So, um, yeah, I mean, it’s the people there’s people walking around that are very much directly linked to, um, the United Nations having to stop acts of genocide in what, you know, so many think of the United States as being this like bastion of freedom and correct, correctness. So I, I just, you know, that’s like really overwhelming for me to think about, um…
G: I like to always point out to people, um, somebody that everyone’s familiar with, uh, Samuel L. Jackson, uh, who is, you know, this incredible actor, who’s had an incredible career. Um, and most people know who he is. Um, he grew up in the segregated South when he was a kid, he had to enter a different door set for Blacks than he did for people who are white. And that’s not that long ago, he’s a living, breathing actor that lived in the segregated South.
P: Yeah, yeah. Also you brought up breeding, Malcolm X, you know, it was one of your first, like books along these lines to read. And I think that the other thing you brought up Black Lives Matter, and it was, we were talking earlier and, you know, there’s, you know, you’re talking about, like you discovered this through intersectionality before intersectionality was a term, you know, um, because there was this shared experience, um, here in, in north America and the United States around this. Um, so I think, you know, and one of the reasons I asked this question is that it’s, um, I feel like there’s, there’s a lot of people that want people of color to, um, tell them like how they need to be, become woke, you know, or how they can fix themselves as a white settler colonizer. And, um, I feel like it’s, it’s a journey that needs to be taken. Um, and that, I feel like there’s a lot of, of leaning on people of color to, um, to guide through that process when it’s like, wait haven’t we already like taken enough, you know, and haven’t we already requested enough. So, um, I just think it’s an interesting, um, it was interesting question for me because it’s also a path that, like, not only that everybody has to go down around realizing this, it’s a very personal journey that we all have to actively engage in. Um, and, um, I feel like we all have something to learn from each other’s journeys with that. So, yeah. Um, that leads me to kind of want to ask you a little bit more about what you make, because it seems that, you know, a lot of the Pop Culture references, you brought up, you brought up, uh, Public Enemy, for example, um, and you know, uh, comic books and all sorts of things. And, and it makes me a little more curious about, you know, what it is you make. And I, I have images of your artwork flashing through my mind right now.
G: Yeah. Do a lot of things, um, which probably has more to do with a hustle than it does with, um, deliberate decision making. Um, which, I mean, I suppose it is deliberate in that, like I draw from every, uh, creative thing that I’ve ever done in my life. So, uh, graffiti in the nineties, um, comic book drawing all through high school, um, you know, my, my, uh, time in school towards a fine art degree with a concentration on painting and graphic design, those have played a big part in it as well. I’m also working in the sign industry for a time and, uh, doing fabrication and just understanding kind of how that works. Um, all the way down to a mentorship that I got in 2005, um, with an Indigenous performance artists, James Luna and performance are like introduced to me, uh, in person. And, um, and so, um, I use all of those things. Uh, I made my bones, or sort of landed on the map if I could say that, um, as a performance artist, um, and fairly well-known for that. And I still use performance art. Um, I’m a painter, I’m a muralist, uh, do conceptual work. Um, I do spoken word, uh, which in the past I’ve, uh, integrated into, uh, my performance work. Um, I’ve done some filmmaking, uh, you know, I’ve done a little bit of everything. Um, my main stays are absolutely going to be performance art and painting and murals, um, and supposed to have a mural in downtown Salt Lake, uh, hopefully here in a, about a month or two.
P: Oh, no kidding.
G: Coming up. Yeah. So, and if, if it all goes through, I’ll be, it’ll be like the biggest, uh, mural in downtown salt lake city. I’m doing a portrait of my mother who grew up there, which I think is super cool. And she, she laughed. I told her and I was like, can I just do? And she’s like, she just laughed out loud. She’s like, sure.
P: Well, that’s incredible. Is that through the public art commission here?
G: Um, I’m working with somebody that may be connected to that. I’m not exactly sure. Um, but, uh, you know, there’s a budget too, for me to do a centerpiece and then to have another, a few other artists built in and around what I’m doing. Um, but it looks like it’s going to be pretty, uh, well-represented in terms of, uh, people of color and different gender identities, so…
P: Wow. Wow. That’s incredible. Well, you know, hit me up when you’re headed this way. I don’t know if I’ll be here. I’m not going to be here all summer long, but yeah. I would love to visit with you and see that project in person a little bit.
G: Yeah, for sure.
P: Excellent. Congrats on that. That’s really cool. And thanks. So, um, the, I, I love the diversity of what you make as an artist. Um, and talking about the hustle, you know, being an artist is not like a, it’s not a career for the faint of heart, for sure. Um, but, um, James Luna, so how, how did you connect with James Luna? I’m just curious to know more about that, that relationship. And he, correct me if I’m wrong, but he passed away a few years ago, correct?
G: Yeah. Yeah. That’s true. We had a residency, I think, he had a residency in New Orleans, uh, new, um, I think if I remember right, he had a heart attack.
P: Yeah. I remember reading about that. Yeah, that was, that was sad. He was a pioneer in a lot of.. well, yeah. I don’t know if that’s the correct word to use
G: In the, uh, the non colonial, uh, definition of pioneer. Yeah. Uh, he, he pushed a lot of, a lot of stuff. Um, so in college I had a performance art class that I hated so much. It was the, it was the hokiest thing. Uh, there was a girl in that class that was like, “my favorite performance art is my miming.” And I was like, “What it’s happening?” Like, um, so the teacher, uh, who is very critical of me, oddly enough, um, was, uh, introduced me to two performance artists that he thought I would be interested in. And one was Guillermo Gomez Peña. Um, and, uh, and then sort of adjacently James Luna because they both have partnered together and done some collaborations. Um, I was interested in James’s work because he was unapologetically Native. Like I just, I wasn’t really interested in the performance aspect of it. I was interested in his voice and in his, uh, his sort of presentation of his work as being unapologetically Indigenous. And at that time, I think I was trying to figure out how to, how to be what I wanted to be without it looking contrived because in high school or in college, it looked contrived. Yeah. And, um, found that I really had to sort of abandon my preconceived notions and rebuild to, to build something that would be more authentic. Um, and I, and I think it was, I think it was successful in being able to do that, but it, it, it took some, it took some tough work. Um, so I worked at the national museum of American Indians, um, on the National Mall in Washington, DC, the year that it opened. Oh, wow. And, uh, so that was like September, 2004. And then, um, they, the museum, as I understand it had raised money from, I think the Ford Foundation, um, to do an offsite, uh, installation to, for James to go to the Venice Biennale. And, uh, so they were taking him to the Venice Biennale. There was two curators with the museum that were, uh, making it happen in a number of other people that were taking care of all the logistics. And the Ford Foundation said, Hey, you really need to set up a mentorship or something. Somebody needs to be able to benefit from this. Besides James, I just happened to be working there. I was in the right place at the right time. They had me bring my paintings in. They asked me what I knew about James. They were surprised at how much I knew. And, uh, and they offered me a mentorship to go to the Venice Biennale with, uh, James Luna and 2005. Wow. Um, and so I spent a few weeks there with him and it was like he and I together, uh, and just like me assisting him and helping him and, um, helping, you know, change things. He eventually pulled me into his performances, um, which I wasn’t counting on. It just sort of randomly happened. And, uh, so there’s photographs of me and James, like in, uh, in his performance together. And, um, when I came home, ‘cause at the time I was working at the working at the National Museum of American Indians, um, I was part of a ground staff. It was meant to be my foot in the door, um, to kind of, I was trying to get into the publications department, um, as a designer and, um, and it wasn’t working out. And so when I came home, like I just, I told my wife, I was just like, I think I know what I’m supposed to be doing. And it’s not that because I’m basically telling people where the bathrooms are. I’m hearing, like I’m hearing as much racist stuff in a week that Native people might hear in a lifetime because that building had just opened like, so from September, 2004 to April, 2005, a million people had been through those doors. It’s a lot, there’s a lot of people. And, um, and I’ve found, um, Americans, average Americans, uh, if I can even say average white Americans are, uh, they could be really terrible. Yeah. It was really, really tough. And, and all of that actually strangely connected to my first performance piece, The Last American Indian on Earth. Um, because I knew that that piece would work because of my experience at that museum. Um, but anyways, that’s how I met James and then James became a friend and a mentor. Um, and anybody who knows James will probably probably tell you the exact same thing. Cause he was just that kind of guy. And, um, and I would talk to him and, uh, I was trying to pull him into some stuff and it didn’t work out. And I saw him, I had a residency at UC Berkeley at the same time, um, that he had a residency at Stanford, um, which isn’t too far from each other, just like on the other side of the bay. Um, and we met up in Oakland, uh, the fall before he passed away. ‘Cause he passed away, um, that following, I want to say February or March, like right in that area. Um, and so we had dinner and I saw him for the first time, in a long time, we were talking about a collaboration, like actually getting together to do something together. And uh, and then I talked to him on his birthday, um, which was just before he passed away. And then he passed, um, yeah, it was a huge, that was a huge blow. It was a huge loss, but I can honestly say that he is, he is somebody that, uh, emboldened me in a lot of ways. And he used to just make fun of me all the time too, which is, I mean sort of Indian way. But, uh, yeah, we, we had some banter back and forth where he was just like, I saw him for the first time in years and he was like, oh, he’s like you filled out. And I’m like, did you just call me fat? Like, what is wrong with you, man?
P: Oh man. Well, I’m glad you to reconnect with them, um, in the ways that you did before he passed. I think that’s, that’s a great, solid thing. And I encourage anybody that’s listening to please look up his work. Um, if you haven’t, if you don’t, if anybody doesn’t know his work, that’s listening, like please dig into his, his body of work. Um, and then you, so it’s, you know, it’s funny because you went from graphic design, did you study graphic design in school?
G: Kind of um, I went in, so my first year in school I was a filmmaker. So I took all the core classes so I could learn filmmaking. Um, my wife was like, yo, you’re not gonna make any money doing this. Like you need to do something. And she, because she was already done with school, like we met, she was in her last, her, she was in her last year at BYU. And, um, and so I basically put off school, uh, until I was 24, uh, right after we got married. So, um, went in as a filmmaker, uh, took all the core classes, switched my major to, um, to, uh, fine art, uh, with a concentration in graphic design. Um, but I was taking these painting classes and I was really, I was, I was not just enjoying it. I felt like I was having a lot of success with it. And um, so I went to the head of the graphic design department and I asked her, um, I asked her if, um, for my senior thesis, uh, for the graphic design senior thesis, you have to do, um, a book like a publication. So I was asking if I could, for my senior thesis do a painting exhibition, which is what painting majors were doing. Um, and, but create all of the collateral material that would coincide with this. So flyers website, like all that stuff
P: A double capstone almost.
G: Yeah. I just wanted to, you know, meet, meet the requirements, but also just, I wanted to do a painting show. She got really mad at me. She kicked me out of the program. Oh, no kidding. And without my permission or my input changed me to a painting major. So I just had to take a couple of extra classes. And at that point I was just so incensed by it that I was like, screw it. I’m going to just, I’ll just be a painting major. But then it worked out too. Cause, um, I was like, you know, if I go to do graduate work, I can, I could do that in painting. Uh, which makes more sense in my mind made more sense of graphic design, but I had the same amount of graphic design courses as graphic design majors.
P: I see.
G: And so I was going to use that to like have a job, um, while working on paintings and stuff like that, which didn’t really work. But, uh, but it was a nice, but it was a nice idea.
P: Well, I mean, it gives you a really, I think rounded perception of visual literacy that I can see in your work a lot. And, um, I, you know, there’s not a lot of painters that use type biography as much as you do. And then also have the ability to create all of the graphics. And I mean the, the street art, the stickers, the t-shirts like all of that, it’s like a whole, there’s a whole Gregg Deal, like, um, universe, you know, like visual universe. That’s I feel like you’re able to create with that. So I…
G: That’s really nice of you to say like I’m a hack about 90% of the time.
P: I mean, there’s, it’s, I, I’m not saying anything negative. I think it’s awesome. You know, I, I think, you know, the biggest problem a lot of creative folks have is they just don’t do anything. They get like frozen with things I already of like, that’s not going to be good. You know, I think some of your more recent work is more of the comic book style, murals, and stickers. Is that correct?
G: I mean, it’s, it’s definitely a mixed bag. Um, the, the others is what that series is called, where I’ve, reappropriated old comic book images from the forties and fifties and have, uh, taken the dialogue on those comic strips and switched them out with, uh, lyrics from punk rock music and, um, things that, that might sound familiar to the Indigenous struggle. Um, the biggest part in my mind, the biggest part of that series is the, the Natives in those images, like I’ve switched everything up. The Natives are winning in all of them, um, or are being, you know, very, um, they’re representing themselves, you know, and, and, uh, important and incredible ways with the statements and things that they’re making. But they, the intersection of, you know, our sort of the, I guess the theme of disenfranchisement, um, and, and equity that is often sung about the, all these old punk rock songs. Um, it’s not exactly like the Indigenous struggle, but it sure sounds familiar. And so, um, that’s sort of where that’s at. Um, painting wise, I’m working on a bunch of stuff. Um, but, uh, it’s like at the moment kind of a mixed bag of all of those things. Um, but the use of imagery that sort of exists within the lexicon of, of, uh, Indigenous representation in popular culture, um, certainly exists, you know, straight across all of my work, um, from the work that I have right now to works that I’ve done in the past to stuff that I’m working on that is different than both of those things that that theme seems to exist.
P: That seems rooted to… I, I watched the Punk Pan of the Punk Pan Indian Romantic Comedy. Um, I believe you were in Fort…
G: in Fort Collins.
P: And I, I think like, I don’t know, it makes me think of some other performance artists that I’ve, I’ve seen in the past, um, as far as like the production style of it and like the, like, I love the storytelling. I love the, it has this, um, uh, the through-line of your own life, as well as the, sort of like this idea of retelling, um, the story, you know, one of the things I’ve heard you say a lot is the, you know, Native Americans are the most visible, invisible people. Um, and I think of that because you just mentioned that you, you’re flipping the narrative when you use these comics, because you’re the “Indians” or the “Indians,” you know, in quotes as they would have been called are winning, you know? Yeah. And it’s, uh, I don’t know, it’s, there’s a, there’s a lot that I think that can be unpacked there. Um, what is like, are you, are you currently researching for, for new projects or?
G: No, no. Well, um, yeah, there’s a lot going on right now. Um, I mean, I’ve been playing around with like creating posters, um, on, you know, cotton rag, uh, paper that is, um, basically being painted by acrylic based spray paint and stencils, um, and creating layers of things that I’ve, um, that I’ve done in the past. And that I’ve been able to shape into something that’s a little more, I don’t want to say consumable. I think it’s all relevant, you know, in terms of, um, I, I would say accessible it’s accessible. Um, so like I have this, uh, Native figure that I’ve worked with in the past and I’ve put like the, um, David Bowie, lightning bolt on his face from Ziggy Stardust. Um, but like little things like that. I’ve been kind of working with them and, um, I got some new machines and so they’re allowing me to work with some of the graphic stuff and to put them, um, into new places and I can incorporate patterns and things into paintings. And, um, so I’m looking at basket patterns. I’m looking at patterns that I’ve created that, uh, are inspired by some of those patterns that, uh, that come from my community. Um, and so there’s this sort of like what you’re seeing right now is sort of informing greater work. That’s, that’s in the works. Like, I’m being able to make work that can stand on its own, but that work is also informing, uh, the, the layering and the, um, depth of new work that’s coming down the pike. Um, I have a show in Harvard, Mass that’s coming up. That’s going to be adjacent to, uh, another Indigenous artists, Jeffrey Gibson. Oh, okay. Yeah. He’s going to be at a gallery in Harvard and, uh, me and, uh, a few other contemporary Native artists are going to be at a nearby spot and like, we’re actually going to be doing a performance piece at his installation.
P: Oh, wow. Okay.
G: There’s all this stuff that’s sort of happening together and Harvard Mass. So that’s in July. Um, I’ve the mural in Salt Lake City. That’s hopefully coming up another mural in Denver. Um, that’s coming up as well. Uh, and then, um, I have a show there’s an old church that was turned into a synagogue. It’s one of the oldest buildings in Denver. That’s actually on the campus for CU Denver. Um, and, uh, it’s called a, Emmanuel. So I have a show there that I’m doing. I have two solo shows at two big spots. Uh, one in Denver, one in Colorado Springs is happening at the same time. Wow. I’m making a lot of decisions right now that are, um, deliberate decisions, uh, that are working with, uh, paintings and some visual work, um, and some conceptual work, which I haven’t done in a long time. And I’ve just really want to get, start getting back into it. Um, and so, um, I’m, I’m making some calculated decisions and trying to create, uh, more work that is by all intents and purposes within the window, I guess, of high art. Um, but, but still rooted in Indigeneity and then the intersection of my life. But one of the things that I figured out in, uh, within this process, uh, that to me, um, contemporary art’s really personal, um, or at least I think a lot of good contemporary art is personal. That it can tell a story. It can tell a narrative, it can tell the experience of the artist or the perspective of the artist, um, through whatever means that they have. And so something like the others with this comic book series, it seemingly could look like just a shtick. Um, but it is heavily aligned with a lot of the things I talk about in the Punk Pan Indian Romantic Comedy, um, that performance piece, you know, as essentially my journey as an Indigenous person and trying to find out where I fit, how it works. And, uh, that process has informed this work and has even played a role in sort of my own, my own sense of healing from things that have happened in the past and diving into music that I’ve always listened to, but diving into it in a way that I haven’t really gone into it since I was a kid and being able to let go of, uh, traumas of my youth and the things that I held onto all the way up to the present, um, to let go of those things, into enjoy this music, to enjoy these ideas, to enjoy the process of drawing these comic book images, um, all of which are really sort of things from my youth that being able to comprehensively put them all together in the same place, in a way that informs a whole new body of work that is playing a role in my own sense of identity and healing. So it’s easily consumable, but it’s actually super personal in the process in which I’ve taken to make it.
P: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s what makes it so easy to be, to connect with, you know, and that also you’re leading with things that are directly related to, to, I would say the masses experience, you know, you’re taking things that we all see or all grew up with, but, you know, recontextualizing them, um…
G: That’s exactly right.
P: And that’s really powerful. It makes you, it makes you hopefully, um, re-examine the world around you, you know, I’ve, I’ve, I read an interview with you where you talk about truth and you know, how truth is, um, uh, is not really well it’s, it’s based on our own perspective, but there’s so much truth that has been created through a curated sense of history and how, and I use the word curated, you know, kind of specifically, because I feel like those, those were very intentional, um, decisions that were made. I feel like more intentional than a lot of folks like to think. Um, and I, I don’t know. I, so I guess that’s why I asked about research is, you know, because you, you’re just, you’re very well versed in that history, uh, of the, of the eraser, the historical eraser and the active eraser. And, um, but it sounds like a lot of it is, is experiences, uh, research through process, you know, it’s, it’s research through lived experience and process.
G: Yeah, I think, I mean, and I’m sure this is probably true for most groups of color. Um, but, um, but I obviously can’t speak to that. Um, but for Native people, um, history is incredibly important and it’s always been incredibly important, important. Um, but in addition to that, you know, with the narratives that have been created, um, you know, through, through school systems in the United States that have said, you know, that this is important and this isn’t, and, you know, have created these, you know, as you said, you know, well, curated narratives, oftentimes Native people have to be the expert in the room. If you’re the only native in the room, like everybody’s looking to you to inform whatever whatever’s happening there. And I think that as a result of that history and understanding our history has played a significant role in, um, and our own survival in just being able to simply not be ostracized in a room full of people who are expecting you to know all the answers about your people. And, um, and so where history is used as a tool of control in a settler colonial society, um, history is used as a tool of survival for Indigenous people and understanding that history and knowing that history, good, bad and indifferent, um, has been incredibly important to me in my life, but has also informed my work, uh, what I’m talking about, how I’m talking about. I mean, I have pieces that talk about the Doctrine of Discovery, which seems like a sort of obscure little piece of thing, but it’s the thing that drove, uh, the westward expansion Manifest Destiny, this idea that, um, you know, uh, colonial powers have the right to take whatever they want under this doctrinal idea that anybody who’s not a Christian is a therefore less than and not human. And so you can kill them and you can remove them and you can just take whatever land that they’re on or whatever resources that they have. Um, but yeah, I mean, these things have played an incredibly important role in me for survival, which I have interned, uh, kind of moved into a space of, of, uh, informing my work and making sure that I’m as on-point as possible. And I’m still learning, I don’t know, everything, not even close. Um, I get taken to task on things still and try to adjust myself accordingly so that I can make sure and align myself with, with a sense of truth that isn’t, isn’t just true, but also, uh, validates our Indigenous existence.
P: Yeah. So it sounds like, um, I mean the, the thing that bounces out to me and that is the double standard that there’s a, that because you’re, you know, an Indigenous person that you’re tasked with knowing the full history of all the Indigenous people of the entire continent, when, you know, uh, white American’s, uh, history is exact same history, you know, it’s, it’s linked to that directly. So it’s, it’s, it’s the same history, it’s just from a different perspective, but the same expectation of knowing that knowledge is not there from a, you know, it’s not expected from the larger society. And I, yeah, I just, that double standard seems like it’s just popping out at me with that.
G: Um, there’s a lot of those, you know. That double standard exists too, within the bounds of how we carry ourselves, you know, why police officers can start shooting the moment they get out of their car. And that’s an appropriate response that, that is, is viewed as being okay. Yeah. But you know, a person of color standing and just simply while not holding a weapon while not threatening anybody screaming for rights and privileges that, uh, are given to, um, to the white majority of the United States is viewed as being violent and that we’re expected to, uh, to take it on the chin and to be benevolent in the way that we talk about these things. If we talk about them at all, um, and to not be upset about it, and the same people that are upset about having to wear masks now are saying that they’re being oppressed are the same people that have told us people of color in general, that we need to get over it and that we need to, uh, calm down and be appreciative of what we have, because without colonialism, we wouldn’t have the things that we have. And, um, so that double standard is I think, a mainstay, for pushing the narrative that people of color are dangerous and that white people are innocent and, and not dangerous.
P: Yeah. Well, I, yeah. And it’s something that I, I see repeatedly in your work being pointed out and I, and I hope that you continue to have a full schedule. Like you are some more people can be exposed to it more fully.
G: Oh, thanks. Yeah. Um, so
P: I’m curious, it sounds like maybe not criticism, but it sounds like you’ve maybe had some comments about things you’ve made and how they don’t feel like they’re accurate or, you know, have you had, I mean, obviously in some of the performance pieces, like the, is it the last, the last Native American, American, Last American Indian? Uh, there’s a lot of funny criticism that comes up good and bad and weird and everything in between ignorant, you know, but as you know, with, with, uh, amongst your peers, amongst art critics, amongst, uh, quote, unquote curators, like, do you, do you have to cope with a lot of criticism?
G: Uh, no. It’s not usually too bad. I mean, curators, like they either mess with you or they don’t. Um, I’ve had a couple of curators that were not fans of my work and took the time to, um, make that statement publicly on social media. Um, but, uh, I mean, even that it happened a while ago. Um, it’s honestly, it doesn’t, it doesn’t phase me. Um, I mean, if, if it’s somebody that I know, this happened once I, it was somebody that I knew, somebody I had broken bread with, somebody I’ve stood shoulder to shoulder with at protests. Um, that was coming at me about my work and not talking to me about my work, but instead just kind of putting out there what their opinion was. I mean, that hurts cause it feels pretty personal. Um, but at the end of the day, uh, it’s not like they’re, they’re just making statements. And, and honestly, when somebody says something like, “I don’t like that,” that’s not a statement about the work. That’s a statement about you and there’s, there’s no, there’s no criticism behind it because the, the, the pronoun that’s being used in it really centers what that statement is. I, uh, and so that doesn’t phase me. Um, I make the work that I make because I make the work that I make. Like, uh, I feel as though my work has, uh, the integrity of my voice, um, I feel like it’s been really consistent on where I stand and what I’m saying. If somebody doesn’t like it, they doesn’t like it. They don’t like it. It doesn’t make a difference to me. In fact, um, I had a job last year and, um, I had to resign because things were getting a little bit toxic and a little bit strange and on my way out, um, my, uh, boss at the time, um, criticized my work, like really, really, uh, harshly and saying like, um, you’re not going to, basically tell me I’m not going to be successful within my work. Like it’s a waste of time and this is somebody who’s purchased my work. Uh, somebody, somebody who in this job was using my name to try to further the company, like he was… But like in that moment, like, he’s trying to say something hurtful, uh, that doesn’t, it doesn’t phase me because, um, because he’s got some mental health issues that have driven him to that place, that, that could have been managed in a way that he would have been okay. But, uh, he refused to do it. And a couple that with a little bit of a narcissism personality disorder, and, you know, you got this, this cocktail of toxicity. And so that stuff doesn’t phase me because I don’t think he’s speaking from that place. And I think a lot of people don’t speak from a place, like in academia, you could sit and be like, well, you know, this work doesn’t work for this reason. And, uh, you know, the execution on this could have been better on that. Like I’ve had those conversations before I was having a conversation with my wife, um, a few years ago and, uh, was having some issues. Cause an article came out that was talking about a Native woman, wrote this article about, um, artists and, uh, and the type of work that makes up contemporary Indigenous art, um, and was criticizing some work. And my style definitely fit within that. So I was having this little, this little, uh, you know, crisis and just being like, is that true? Is it right? And my wife was like, you know, I just, I want to say this, that your, your performance art is really bad-ass. Um, why don’t your paintings look like your performance art and she’s, she and she’s right. Yeah. And, and then I was talking to a friend and it was it’s completely like separate, like autonomous. He didn’t know that my wife said this. He said the same exact thing. And so that criticism, like, there’s a moment where I’m like, oh gosh, like, it. You’re right. You know? And, and, and that’s really what it comes down to. Um, if I’m being honest with myself, like, why can’t I hear those words there? Right. I was making paintings that I was hoping to sell to a Western buyer’s market. So it had to be more palatable. Whereas the performance art, I was not at the time was not getting paid to do it. It’s basically art for art’s sake. And I don’t really care what anybody thinks. And I can just say it. So the performance art comes out in that way and the paintings look like a softball in comparison. And so I had to fix that. I really had to work on that.
P: Yeah. And the performance art seems to be the thing that caught a lot of folks’ attention and brought you into some, uh, I guess, larger popularity.
G: Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
P: I, you know, I’ve been, I’ve taken about an hour of your time now, so I don’t want to take too much more, but I’m curious to know what sort of a normal day looks like for you.
G: Uh, we’ll see. I have five kids, so, uh, I get up about five o’clock in the morning. Um, my daughter, my oldest daughter is almost 15, has some early morning, uh, classes before school. Um, hello. And, uh, so I get up, get ready. I take her, I go to, uh, the grocery store and I get some hot chocolate and usually something for Sage for breakfast. And then I sit in the parking lot and read or work on something. And then I bring her home. I pick up my oldest son. I take both of them to school, Sage is in high school, he is in middle school. And then I come home and I’m usually home by 8:30 quarter to quarter to, or sorry, 7:30 quarter to eight, and then, um, I’ll eat breakfast and then I just kind of get to work and just start working. I usually work until four or five o’clock.
P: Okay.
G: Um, if there’s any big projects or anything that I’m kind of on a deadline on, I will stay up late, but I always sit with my wife for a couple of hours. Um, kids go to bed right about seven. The older kids usually are just go into the room and just hanging out and doing their thing. So it’s just my wife and I, and we’ll watch some TV shows and, and then my wife will go to bed at about 9:40, 45 or I’m sorry. Yeah, no, 8:45. So she’s in bed by like nine and then she’ll read for an hour or so. And I’ll, and I’ll keep working if I need to keep working. Um, or I’ll just sort of make my way, uh, to bed. So I’ve been trying to get on better sleeping patterns because I used to have really bad sleeping.
P: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that’s a stereotype of like working, working through the night all too often, you know.
G: I’ve done it and I still do it, you know, like from time to time, but I can’t do it back to back. Like I used to my, my wife, you know, and I think that’s really interesting. One day she was just like, you never come to bed with me. Like you need to come to bed with me. I want to be next to you. You know, like, yeah. And, uh, and so I took that pretty seriously and, and started when we moved to Colorado, I was drinking a lot of crappy energy drinks and, and just staying up to all hours in the night when I moved here, I was like, okay, no more energy drinks. Uh, so I quit that cold turkey that was like almost six years ago. And, um, and then, uh, started coming to bed regularly. So I try to go to bed at around the time my wife goes to bed and I usually stay up and watch movies or, you know, something in bed and, um, at least three or four times a week, I’m in bed normal. And the rest of the time, I’ll just swing for the fences.
P: Gotcha. Gotcha. And you’ve, you’ve been in, um, Colorado about six years. You said?
G: Five and a half years. Five and a half years.
P: And, um, I saw somewhere that, I don’t know if it’s true or if the museum was complaining, I was claiming it, but the museum, uh, the art museum in Denver. Oh, I’m drawing a blank on what the actual official name of that is the
G: Denver Art museum
P: Denver Art Museum. Yeah. It’s like, I knew it was some combination of those words, um, uh, claims that they brought you out for a residency and you stayed basically.
G: Yeah. So, um, I always like, uh, I think December, 2014, um, one of their, uh, Native curators, his name is, uh, John Luca Lewkowicz was in DC and I was also presenting the Last American Indian on Earth at the National Museum of American Indians for a thing that was happening there. And, um, anyways, he wanted to meet, he didn’t tell me what he wanted to meet for. And, and, um, so this is like December, yeah, 2014. And then, uh, I almost blew off the meeting, like straight up, almost blew it off. Cause it was just too much stuff going on. And my wife, like I decided a long time ago that no matter what I do and no matter how big things get or how small they get or whatever, um, I always answer emails. I always accommodate people. I will always communicate with people, um, who reach out to me that it’s an obligation that I feel. And, um, so I was going to skip it. And my wife’s like, you know, you remember you made this commitment that you’re on and I’m like, you’re right. You’re right. You’re right. And so, um, I ended up having breakfast with him and he offered me this residency. Um, I’d never met him before and it felt a little bit sight unseen. I later found out that he was stalking me on social media. He was finding most of my work and offered me this Native art, um, uh, residency. So it have been, it was my first residency. Um, and it was going to be in 2015, fall of 2015 and ended, um, January, uh, 2016. And um, so January 2015, I just felt this pull this impression like that we needed to move to Colorado. And, um, my wife was like, okay. And at the time we were, um, cause the recession hit us really hard in 2008, took me years to recover from that. And so we lost our house. We lived in a house for 15 years. We bought it the year after we were married. Um, we sold it at the 11th hour. Um, like we, we closed on a Friday and it was set to auction in foreclosure, the following Tuesday, like that’s how close we were to losing our house. And, um, but we lived there for 15 years. We had a lot of things. So we moved to Culpeper, Virginia, which is about 80 miles Southwest of D.C. Um, and, uh, we were there for a year and a half and then I was like, I think we need to move to Colorado. And my wife didn’t even question it. She was like, okay. And, um, I didn’t know how it was going to work out though. I mean, I don’t have the kind of job where I can say for a certain amount of months and, you know, and then, and then move. And, um, my father had cancer for several years and it went terminal, uh, in late April, uh, our in, uh, sorry, late May. And then he, um, uh, when he went terminal, I saw him and then I went home and then I was going to fly back out when he was like in his last days. And I missed him by, by about 12 hours and, uh, he had passed and yeah, it’s okay. He, you know, my dad he’s like an old hippie and he was always kind of a, it was kind of a dick and, uh, and I love him to death, but like he was, he just was very particular and yeah, you know, he got annoyed. And so it just was funny that he passed away the way that he did, because it was very much on track with, with him just like, screw you, I’m going to go, however, I’m going to go. You know? Yeah. And so he went on him. I mean, as much as you can go on your terms with cancer, he went when he went and it was fine. Um, but I went back to Utah. So I was with my sister and my mom and he and my mom had been divorced for geez, like 20 something years at that point. Um, but I went out there to be with them and, and like two days in my sister’s like, did you know dad had life insurance? I was like, no, I wouldn’t like we grew up broke. So my dad had this, but he, he, he actually went to college as masters in, in the last, you know, six or eight years of his life. He was…
P: oh, wow!
G: working a very good job, doing what he’d love to do. And I’m just really glad he got to do that. Um, but he had life insurance. So I asked my sister, I was like, Hey, I don’t want to be the greedy one here, but what are we talking about? And she told me, uh, and it was his wish that I used that money to move to Colorado. Cause he knew that’s what I wanted to do.
P: Oh wow.
G: And um, I called my wife and I was just like, my dad’s got life. This is how much we’re talking. And she started crying. She’s like, oh my gosh, we’re moving to Colorado. And yeah, that’s how it all came together. Like I just knew that it had to happen. And then, um, you know, this, this significant loss of my father, uh, also ended up really sustaining my family in a way that, uh, that just felt like a huge blessing. Almost like a sacrifice that he made for us. So…
P: What, uh, I mean, what a legacy in so many different aspects, you know?
G: Yeah.
P: Um, well, I…
G: Didn’t mean to get heavy…
P: I know, I was just thinking about like, it was making me a little bit emotional cause it’s been, you know, the pandemic in the past year and a half has been a really intense for, I think a lot of people and folks in the arts it’s been really, um, there’s been a lot of upheaval and I was just thinking like you talking about the moving and the intensity of it, it was like, oh man, like there’s so much, that’s hitting home with this. And I lost my dad about 12 years ago. So it was like, yeah, just a lot of like yeah, an emotional, uh, response to that story. Um, so how do you, um, it sounds like you like Denver though, like you like being there.
G: Yeah. I live in, I live in Colorado Springs, about an hour. Well I live outside of Colorado Springs, so not in the city
P: Okay. I was thinking you were in Denver for some reason. I just thought I saw you worked a lot with, um, RedLine at one point and…
G: Still working with them too. Yeah. I, I drive up to Denver. I do a lot of work in Denver because that’s where a lot of things are happening, particularly on this end. Colorado Springs is I think like the second, most politically conservative city in the country, like it’s, it’s kind of, it’s Trump country for sure.
P: The air force based city. Right. I mean…
G: Yeah, there’s a couple of military bases here. Um, but also like the, the anti-gay anti-trans lobbying group focus on the family is based here as well. Um, but the thing is, is it’s, it’s inexpensive here. I mean, so I’ve got five kids and I need studio space and I have a big enough house to do all of those things and all the kids have their own room. So driving an hour and 20 minutes to downtown Denver is something that I’m okay with. Um, particularly in Utah, or in DC where you have to drive. Like I lived in Northern Virginia, so it’s like DC Metro. Um, so I lived 30 miles from downtown DC and it would take two or three hours to get there because the traffic is just so terrible. Sure. Um, so it’s, it’s not that, yeah, I like it here. You know, Denver and Colorado just at large feels like an untapped resource. You know, there’s a lot of good up-and-coming artwork that’s coming through here. Um, but like Denver has grown so fast. It is by all intents and purposes, like a, like a cow town, this has grown too fast and you know, the, the weed industry hasn’t helped with that at all. Um, and that of course is affected, um, the housing market and everything else. But, um, you know, I’m still close to the mountains and, uh, I have access to those things. One of the, one of the justifications I had for moving here was that I was traveling a lot because I do a lot of lecturing and a lot of, um, work outside of where I live and being somewhere that’s a little closer to the middle of the country and being able to reach both coasts quickly and easily, uh, seemed to make a lot of sense, but the amount of work that I’m doing in Denver, uh, and in Colorado at large right now is significantly more than it was even just a couple of years ago. So I think that there’s really a burgeoning, uh, art scene here that is super exciting to see and be a part of,
P: Well, even in Colorado Springs, I feel like they have a, uh, sort of an arts district that’s been growing over the past decade. It’s not huge, but it’s, I, I re like, I feel like they have, there’s a small museum and there’s, uh, art walks and things that I think were happening at least pre pandemic.
G: Yeah. There’s, um, there’s a thing called art in the streets, um, that is part of downtown Colorado Springs. And, um, I was fortunate enough to be on their jury panel two years ago. And then I was, and then I was in it last year, um, and actually did this massive 77 foot tall mural, uh, in downtown Colorado Springs called Take Back the Power, um, which is a portrait of my oldest daughter. Um, she has a red hand print on her face, denoting missing and murdered Indigenous women, but she’s also, um, that piece is very much about representation as well, that, um, that this is a modern living Indigenous person that is, um, being represented in a place that is considered to be a very white and very conservative. And, uh, and so that was just like, super exciting. So there’s, there’s some really cool stuff happening and I’m stoked to get to be a part of that. I’m on their board now for art in the streets, so, oh, excellent. So that’s, that’s a really cool thing. There’s the Colorado college has, um, a, a, what, what was formerly called? I think it’s still called the Colorado Springs Fine Arts Center. Uh, it was acquired by Colorado College, which is a very rich college, uh, in downtown and they’re doing some groundbreaking stuff. Um, CU Colorado Springs has a new art center called the End Center. Um, they’re doing some really exciting things and I have a solo show there in 2022, uh, in that space. And so, yeah, there’s definitely some stuff happening. Um, but I think the art scene, like the gallery scene and then some of these, uh, museum entities, there’s a little bit of disconnect there and I can see there the needs to have a greater sense of community. And I think the Colorado Springs Fine Art, Center’s really trying to help bring together. Okay.
P: Okay. Yeah. I, I don’t know a ton about it. I just, you know, I lived in the, on the Western slope in Durango over there, and I had communicated with some folks from Colorado Springs at one point, and I just remember they had some stuff that we were talking about and it seemed like they were, uh, there was some up and coming things. Um, so I, if you are willing, we’re getting close to time, but would you be willing to go through a few short answer questions about yourself and some of your interests real quick?
G: Yeah, sure.
P: Great. Um, let’s jump into that. So I know you’re a huge music fan. What’s a, this might be a hard one. What’s your favorite album or what is the album?
G: That’s not a fair question at all.
P: What’s a good recommendation for someone.
G: Right. Right now I’ve been listening to, um, The Idles a lot, uh, UK band, um, that sort of follows that, you know, really exciting, uh, I think punk aesthetic, although I think that they actively don’t claim to be punk, um, at all, but they, they definitely sound like it. Um, they have a new album that just came out. Um, and I, I can tell you what it’s called here in just a second. Um, but they are, uh, they are doing some really cool stuff that I just, I love listening to them right now and, and just what they’re, what they’ve been doing and how they’ve been doing it. So The Idols are one that I’ve been listening to, but, um, I dunno, you know, The Clash is awesome and Black Flag is a big favorite and, uh, the Misfits are awesome. Is the first show I took my daughter to, uh, I took her to see the original lineup and, uh, yeah, yeah. Um, there’s a couple of other ones in there that I really like that are a little less, a little more obscure, like Stiff Little Fingers, uh, is an old UK band that comes out of like UK punk era that are super cool. Um, and I mean, you know, there’s all the other stuff I, salt lake city used to have this crazy, like hardcore punk scene. And, um, and so that’s where that’s kind of how I grew up like,
P: Like SLC Punk time period.
G: Yeah. Yeah. It’s like, I was really into like Gorilla Biscuits and Youth of Today and, um, and, and, uh, Inside Out, and then you kind of move into Rage Against the Machine, but I also started kind of going backwards from there. I started, um, looking at, uh, older punk and sort of connecting with things that way. Um, but yeah, so that was always a big part of, you know, how I grew up. Ultra Mono is the name of the new Idols album. It’s super good.
P: Okay. I’ll have to look that up. I’m not familiar with that at, I’ll have to add that to my list, for sure.
G: They do a song called Never Fight a Man with a Perm, uh, which is a fantastic title of their album, that Joy as an Act of Resistance, but they were on NPR, Tiny Desk and they do, they do that song and their performance is so cool. So if you have, if you have a chance to look it up.
P: Yeah, yeah. I’ll have to check that out. Maybe I’ve seen it. I’ve, I feel like I watched those things constantly. Um, and what about a movie that you’ve seen recently that you’re, you know, stands out or a favorite movie?
G: Uh, see, this is a hard one too. Cause, cause I grew up around the Sundance film. Oh, that’s right.
P: Yeah. That’s like epicenter. And that was your first interest there.
G: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Um, I think, uh, gosh, that’s a, that’s a really good question. Um, I can tell you, I can give you an answer. Hold on. Um, cause I’ve been like there’s some older movies, like there’s one called A Thin Red Line, um, which is, uh, by Terrence Malick, but like everybody’s in it and it’s, it’s a war movie, but it just has a series of vignettes and, and it’s beautiful. Like it is such a beautiful movie. Um, and a lot of people, I mean that equates to it for a lot of people as being boring, but I think it’s just this incredibly beautiful film, cause it’s not about war so much as it’s about the emotions of these, these men that are in war and what that looks like and how that kind of goes. So, um, that one always sticks out. I, I also, yeah, I’m of the Kevin Smith era too, so, you know, Mallrats and Clerks. Totally inappropriate.
P: And it also feels like, I don’t know, it seems like the dichotomy that is, is you, you know, like I think that’s good. Yeah. Um, what about, uh, a book that you’re into right now or you’ve read recently
G: Cash, the autobiography of Johnny Cash by Johnny Cash.
P: Yeah. Okay. Interesting.
G: My wife was giving me a hard time ‘cause when he passed away, uh, I think I cried more when he passed away when my dad passed away. ‘Cause there’s music attached to it. You know, like you can’t like he, he was just a big part of, of a lot of my music, um, connection. And my father met him and my grandfather used to hang out with him at the grand old Opry and everybody else. So there’s there’s I dunno, there’s that song? Uh, the, um, uh, the Nine Inch Nails song Hurt. Oh my God. It’s so incredibly haunting.
P: What about a favorite work of art?
G: That’s a hard one too, because I really, you know, despite unpopular opinions, I really like Damien Hurst’s work. I mean, and really like Matthew Barney as well as performance and sort of video, uh, performance artist. Um, I really like Gerard Richter‘s, uh, abstract work. Um, yeah, but I also think his realism is just, just mind blowing. It’s just, he, because he’s painting a perfect picture and then he blurs it, but you can still see all the detail. It’s amazing. I love the unapologetic representation of the Guerrilla Girls. Um, and in fact, got to see them when I was at the Venice Biennale Ali, uh, they had like a, like a two story tall chandelier made out of tampons and, uh, they were doing interviews off to the side wearing gorilla masks. And I was just like, this is amazing. ‘Cause I learned about them in college. Um, and just love that, but I’m moved by Jeffrey Gibson‘s work. Um, I’m, I’m moved by Kent Monkman his work as well, um, as sort of contemporary Native artists and of course James Luna, which we already talked about. Um, but, uh, I don’t know. Um, I mean, uh, on the flip side, I suppose, uh, from a graphic design point of view, um, I really I’ve, I’ve always respected and like Shepherd Ferry‘s work. Um, I think he has way more depth than people give him credit for. Um, and maybe that’s because he’s a friend and I’ve talked to him about this a lot. Um, but there’s a couple of guys at work that work adjacently to him. One is, uh, or necessarily Ernesto Yerena Montejano, uh, who’s out of LA, uh, who is, uh, a really good dude if you ever have you ever want to talk to somebody he’s a good person to talk to and Thomas Wimberley who is also sort of adjacent in the same similar styles, but these guys are pushing graphics in a way that challenges me. And I really appreciate that.
P: So what advice would you share with a young person that’s beginning their life, um, and in the field that you’re in or, um, maybe, maybe a tidbit of advice that you wish that you received when you’d started?
G: Never asked for permission. Um, but you can always ask for forgiveness. Um, but most of the time you don’t even have to do that. I don’t know, you know, just, you just got to push, um, because the truth is, is that you don’t know who’s seeing your work, what people are planning, uh, about your work, um, what the possibilities are. Um, there’s always something happening that you can’t see. And so you just have to work, you have to keep with it and you have to keep pushing, um, you know, social, social media has allowed the opportunity to really be able to put work out there and in a way that you can get more eyes on it than you would be able to, uh, in the past, um, that, uh, I think one of the big things too, is that your work has value. If you give your work away for free, then you’re saying essentially that it has no value. Um, and if you’re not willing to give your work value, nobody else is going to give your work value. Don’t ever give anything away for free. Um, you know, and, and there’s certain ways of doing that, but I mean, I’ve found that there’s a lot of people that try to give their stuff away and I am just a huge advocate, like don’t. Your work has worth, but if you don’t value work, nobody else will, but you have to just keep pushing and keep moving forward as best you can.
P: Excellent. Excellent words of advice. Well, Gregg, I don’t want to take too much more of your time. I know you’re busy and you have probably quiet time there at the house right now that you could be using to do all sorts of things. So, um, I very, very much appreciate your time today. It’s been really wonderful to get to know you better.
G: You too. I really appreciate you having me on this. It has actually been a lot of fun. Great,
P: Great. And when you come to salt lake, you know, let us know, we’d love to meet with you and get to know you in person a little bit.
G: Yeah, let’s do it for sure. I’m totally down.
P: All right, sounds great. I’ll talk to you again soon.
G: All right. Take care.
References:
- From the Outside: https://podcasts.apple.com/dk/podcast/from-the-outside/id1563470939
- Black Lives Matter: https://blacklivesmatter.com/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=8xGwiJoU0tOLqMpz1ZUF_r0qdcV4SVibKwtWEgAk6Ak-1639275759-0-gaNycGzNCNE
- LDS: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/?lang=eng
- Mormon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormons
- Park City: https://www.visitparkcity.com/things-to-do/?gclid=CjwKCAiAtdGNBhAmEiwAWxGcUsNdeacP1htMt4Bbjhw_2Nevx5u3Rt_-oMgD79OYT5VZVSbCQfvuwhoCZ5wQAvD_BwE
- Salt Lake City: https://www.visitsaltlake.com/
- Holladay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holladay,_Utah
- Pyramid Lake Paiute Tribe: https://plpt.nsn.us/
- Denver Art Museum: https://www.denverartmuseum.org/en
- UC Berkeley: https://www.berkeley.edu/\
- Dartmouth College: https://home.dartmouth.edu/
- Columbia University: https://www.columbia.edu/
- Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian: https://americanindian.si.edu/
- PBS The Art District: https://www.pbs.org/show/arts-district/
- The Daily Show: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/the-daily-show-springs-showdown-with-native-americans-on-redskins-fans/2014/09/19/c6c5f936-3f73-11e4-b03f-de718edeb92f_story.html
- Totally Biased with W. Kamau Bell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totally_Biased_with_W._Kamau_Bell
- Spike Lee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spike_Lee
- Public Enemy: https://www.publicenemy.com/
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- James Luna: https://hyperallergic.com/433437/james-luna-performance-artist-memorial/
- Guillermo Gomez Peña: https://www.guillermogomezpena.com/
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- Harvard, Mass: https://www.harvard.edu/
- Jeffrey Gibson: https://www.jeffreygibson.net/
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- Emmanuel: https://www.emmanuelgallery.org/
- Colorado Springs: https://www.visitcos.com/
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- RedLine: https://www.redlineart.org/
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- Colorado Springs Fine Arts Center: https://fac.coloradocollege.edu/
- The Idols: https://shopus.idlesband.com/
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- Black Flag: https://www.blackflagband.com/
- Misfits: https://www.misfits.com/
- Stiff Little Fingers: https://slf.rocks/home-base
- SLC Punk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLC_Punk!
- Gorilla Biscuits: https://www.discogs.com/artist/257227-Gorilla-Biscuits
- Youth of Today: https://www.discogs.com/artist/259977-Youth-Of-Today
- Inside Out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_Out_(band)
- Rage Against the Machine: https://tour.ratm.com/
- Ultra Mono: https://shopus.idlesband.com/releases/
- Never Fight A Man With A Perm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEe4i2osF5A
- NPR, Tiny Desk Concert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMehItNQKAA
- Sundance Film: https://www.sundance.org/
- A Thin Red Line: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thin_Red_Line_(1998_film)
- Terrence Malick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrence_Malick
- Kevin Smith: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Smith
- Mallrats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mallrats
- Clerks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerks_(film)
- autobiography of Johnny Cash: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35488.Cash
- Nine Inch Nails: https://www.nin.com/
- Hurt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AHCfZTRGiI
- Damien Hurst: https://www.damienhirst.com/
- Matthew Barney: https://www.guggenheim.org/artwork/artist/matthew-barney
- Gerard Richter: https://www.gerhard-richter.com/en/
- Guerrilla Girls: https://www.guerrillagirls.com/
- Kent Monkman: https://www.kentmonkman.com/
- Shepherd Ferry: https://obeygiant.com/
- Thomas Wimberley: https://www.thomaswimberly.com/
- Ernesto Yerena Montejano: http://www.hechoconganas.com/bio